#fatma sultan daughter of murad iii

[ottomanladies]

DAUGHTERS OF MURAD III

As we all know, Murad III was the sultan who had thirty daughters when he died, but in 1598 seventeen or eighteen daughters died due to plaque, so there were twelve or thirteen who were left. There were several daughters of Safiye Sultan, and much more daughters of concubines, who were married in mass ceremony in summer of 1613.

When Murad ascended the throne, Venetian ambassadors started to report about his family composition. Let’s now see reports from early reign of Murad III:

Report from Giacomo Soranzo from 1576 (page 205) (provided by Maria Pia Pedani)

Sultan Amorat III di questo nome, et XIII imperator de Turchi, è al presente di età di 33 anni. Ha una figliola di XII anni et dui figliuoli maschi, il primo, sultan Mehemet, di IX anni, et l’altro sultan Soleiman di VIII.

Report from Giovanni Correr from 1578 (page 239) (provided by Maria Pia Pedani)

Sarebbe, dicono, inclinato per natura a disordinar con le donne, perché si diletta grandemente della conversation loro; pure, con tanta commodità et quantità che n’ha, si tien per fermo che ’l sia contento della sola moglie, la qual se ben non le ha per ancora fatto chebin, che tanto vuol dire come indotata et sposata, ama grandemente, né mai dorme lontano da lei, et con essa ha tre figliuoli, una femina de XI anni et dui maschi, il primo di IX, et l’altro di V anni.

Report from Giacomo Soranzo from 1584 (page 268) (provided by Maria Pia Pedani)

Questo sultan Mehemet, solo et unico figliolo maschio di Sua Maestà con doi figliole femine, se ben ha havuto altri quattro figlioli maschi, che son morti, tutti di una istessa madre, è hora in età di XVI in XVII anni, et la prima figliola di XIIII dissegnata, come si crede, a Ibrain bassà, et [6] l’altra più picciola.

Report from Paolo Contarini from 1583; book Relazioni degli ambasciatori veneti al Senato (page 243):

Ha Sua Maesta un figliuolo unico maschio chiamato Sultan Memet, di eta d’ anni 18, e che l’ anno passato fu ritagliato, com’ e noto alla Serenita Vostra, di maggior vita e di piu bella statura del padre, di color olivastro, e negli occhi mostra esser crudele; s’ intende ch’ egli abbia animo grande, e che spesso biasma il padre, perche dipende dal consiglio delle done e non va in persona alla guerra. Ha pure Sua Maesta due figliuole, una di eta di quattordici anni, che, come ho detto, e destinata per moglie ad Ibraim bassa, e l’ altra e di anni dieci, ne per ancora e destinata ad alcuno, sebben si ragiona che la sultana madre abbia intenzionne di farla dar per moglie a Mamut aga, capigi bassi del serenissimo Signor, allievo e molto favorito di Sua Maesta.

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As far as I understood from reports above:

Beside Mehmed, Safiye gave birth to four sons who died before 1584; one of them was named Süleyman who was year younger than Mehmed, thus being born in 1567. Also, Mahmud and Selim (who were born respectively in 1572 and 1579; see A Comparison of Seyyid Lokman’s Records of the Birth, Death and Wedding Dates of Members of Ottoman Dynasty (1566-1595) with the Records in Ottoman Chronicles by Pazan Ibrahim), were also sons of Safiye, according to birth dates.

Safiye for sure had at least two daughters; Ayşe, who was four years younger than her brother Mehmed, thus being born in 1570, and Fatma, who was four years younger than her elder sister and eight years younger than her brother, thus being born in 1574. Beside them, it seems that Safiye had one more daughter, who was older from Mehmed two to three years, thus being born in 1563-1564.

From later reign of Murad III we have also some informations:

Report from Lorenzo Bernardo in 1590 provided by Maria Pia Pedani (actually the report was made in 1586/87; because this bailo was there until 1587)

Fra tutti questi che a quella Porta potessero far bene e male a questo Senato è la sultana moglie, uno de principali mezi appresso il Gran Signore. Questa è di natione albanese, molto savia e prudente, si è mostrata da un tempo in qua molto bene affetta alle cose della Serenità Vostra, e però mi son trattenuto con lei con alcune galanterie di poco valore, perché non si mostra avida né ha causa di essere tale perché è ricchissima. Il suo favore non solo è da stimare al presente, ma molto più per l’avenire, in tempo che regnasse  il prencipe suo figliolo, appresso il quale è di molta autorità. È d’età d’anni 38 in 39, e sono anni 25 ch’hebbe commercio col Gran Signore col quale per anni 18 continui hebbe molti figlioli, de quali al presente ne vivono tre solamente, cioè Meemet prencipe, la figliola maritata in Ibraim bassà et una figliola che hora è da marito.

Safiye’s Household and Venetian Diplomacy; page 29 note 64

16 Aug. 1590  – the marriages of two daughters of the sultan has been arranged; the first is beautiful and will marry the beylerbeyi of Greece; the other is humpback, but not a monster, and she will marry Siyavuş paşa

Safiye’s Household and Venetian Diplomacy; page 29 (note 63 confirms spring 1591 as date)

In 1591 the rich Hümaşah Ayşe, the daughter of Mihrimah and Rüstem, proposed to pay the expenses of one hundred galleys for six months, if her son-in-law Çiğala-zâde Sinan paşa was made kapudanpaşa. At the same time a sister of prince Mehmed tried to obtain the same office for her brother-in-law Mehmed paşa.

Report from Matheo Zane from April 18, 1592, to the Doge and Senate (source: Calendar of State Papers and Manuscripts Relating to English Affairs (1893); page 23 – I will only provide first part of the letter)

The appointment of Sciavus as Gran Vizir was made against the intentions of the Sultan himself, who, in his own mind, had designed to make Sciavus second Vizir, and Sinan Gran Vizir. But Sinan was far away, and his Majesty was aware that there was pressing danger if he refused to satisfy the troops by the removal of Ferrad; he accordingly conferred the seals to Sciavus. This appointment is more popular among the people and the merchants than with the troops, who remember that the disorders of their payment took place in the time of Sciavus, though the head of the Beglierbey of Greece paid the penalty for all. It is thought that if the Sultan’s daughter, who is twenty-six years old, marries Sciavus he will keep his office, if not there is danger of his losing it…

Alphonse la Martine claims in his work History of Turkey (p. 108):

Ferhad-Pasha, grown old in the wars of Persia, was appointed grand vizier in the place of Sinan-Pasha, who returned for the third time into his sumptuous exile of Malghara. Ferhad had espoused the daughter of the Sultana Safiye. This princess governed under her son Mahomet III from the depths of the harem, still more absolutely than under Amurath.

Report from Girolamo Capello from 1600 (p. 416, provided by Maria Pia Pedani)

Rimane per ultimo Sciaus, di nazione ongaro, e per quello che viene detto nato nobilmente. Questo fu grandemente amato da sultan Selim; è persona di bell’aspetto, grave, di poche parole e risoluto, e nessuno vien formato di maggior intelligenza di lui, né più atto a regger tanto peso, essendo stato tre volte primo visir, se bene gl’attribuiscono nome di sfortunato, essendo nel tempo del suo governo successi incendii grandissimi et accidenti infausti, e sempre che si sente voce di mutazione di governo egli viene nominato per primo; ma si giudica che non potrà riuscire per non esser in grazia della regina, essendo che doppo la morte della prima sua moglie, non volse prendere un’altra sultana. Con tutto ciò non manca chi lo pone innanzi. E l’ultimo ordine che diede il Gran Signore a Sciaus, ch’egli non dovesse partir per la Mecca, facendolo ritornar in Costantinopoli mentre era in pronto per andarsene (se bene altri dicono che fosse sua invenzione per vedere come si muoveva il re) lo pose in gran speranza, che Sua Maestà si volesse servir di lui. Nell’amicizia di questo si conserva il medico Benvenisti ebreo, che per vedersi privo del donativo che Vostra Serenità gli faceva già molto tempo di 500 zecchini l’anno, quasi pretesi da lui per obligo di servizi prestati, si rende ora poco ben affetto, se bene lo dissimula. Ma si ha da lodar Dio che Vostra Serenità ora si trova libera dalla mano di tutte quest’arpie delle quali non avrà bisogno, piacendo a Sua Divina Maestà per gran pezzo, e quando anco Sciaus risorgesse, saranno ambedue sempre amicissimi di lei perché sono avarissimi, oltre che Sciaus si è sempre mostrato ben inclinato verso questo Serenissimo Dominio.

From this reports I was able to obtain, I understand next:

Safiye’s daughter Ayşe, who was from 1586 married to Ibrahim Pasha was sent with her husband to Egypt where she lived until end of reign of her father. But, there were at least two daughters of Safiye Sultan in the capital whose marriages occurred, even if their ceremonies was not reported by bailos.

In 1590, two daughters of Murad III (and Safiye) were promised respectively to governor of Rumelia (ambassadors often reffered them as beylerbeys of Greece) and Siyavuş Pasha. It seems that Sultana who was promised to governor of Rumelia was married to him latest in 1591, as her sister tried to obtain function of Kapudan Pasha for her husband (even though daughter of Rustem Pasha succeeded in her intention for obtaining that title to her son-in-law).  It also seems that her husband’s identity was Mehmed Pasha, more precisely Nişancı Kara Mehmed Pasha. Sometimes referred as Boyalı Mehmed Pasha. Mehmed Pasha died in June 1593.

I would suggest that this Sultana might be Fatma, as she would be 16 y.o., by the same age her sister Ayşe married Ibrahim Pasha. Also, as Mehmed Pasha died in June 1593, she could soon remarry. Also, there is a interesting quote in work DAMAD HALIL PASHA (d. 1603): THE LIFE AND CAREER OF A “MODERATE” OTTOMAN PASHA (pp. 1643-1644) which says that ‘’the death of Nişancı Mehmed Pasha, one of the dome viziers, on 21 June 1593 seems to have made it easier for Halil Pasha to become vizier’’.

On the other hand, there is a Sultana who was promised to Siyavuş Pasha after he was widowed after death of Fatma Sultan, sister of Murad III. From 1592  report of Matheo Zane, we find out that this Sultana is twenty-six years old and that marriage negotiations are still going on. By report from 1600, it is clear that this Sultana who was engaged to Siyavuş Pasha was Safiye’s daughter, because Girolamo Capello reported that Siyavuş Pasha refused to remarry to Murad III’s daughter and he eventually fell out of favour of Safiye Sultan. It seems that this daughter was the eldest daughter of Murad III, beside Ayşe Sultan and Fatma Sultan, who were married at the time.

Beside that

In Sicill-I Osmani cilt 1, page 26, says that daughter of Murad III named Mihrimah was the eldest daughter of her father when she died and that she married Mirahur Ahmed Pasha. Also in work Bu mülkün kadın sultanları by Sakaoğlu, Mihrimah is claimed as eldest daughter of Murad III, and that she was married to Mirahur Ahmed Pasha in 1604. But, if she was eldest daughter and was married in 1604 to Ahmed Pasha, she was 40 years old, which means she had another marriages during reign of her father and brother about whom we know nothing. I would go with her being the one trying to be married to her late aunt’s husband Siyavuş Pasha. If the description is right, and she was humpback, but not a monster, I would suggest she was maybe retired in her Palace or Topkapi Palace the most of her time because of health problems.

It seems that Murad III also had another daughter, Hümaşah, who was absolutely wronged by Alderson, he assigned her husbands of Şehzade Mehmed’s daughter Hümaşah Sultan and Şehzade Mehmed’s granddaughter Fatma Hanımsultan. Actually, thanks to Ragusan envoys, we know that she was wife of Nakkaş Hasan Pasha. According to Factions and Favourites at the Courts of Sultan Ahmed I, this marriage occurred between January and March 1605, but there are venetian reports which claim differently:

Resta quarlo Visir Assan Nacas, che in turco vuol dir pittore, per qualche gusto che ha di quella professione; e uomo di 54 anni, picciol di persona, nacque in Russia, d’ingegno sottile, poiche oltre il dipingere, sa ancora lavorare un orologio. Fu Silictar del re passato che il fece anco Visir, e gli die’in moglie una sua sorella – zia del presente Gran Signore; onde resta egli ancora parente della Maesta Sua.

Source: Relazioni degli stati Europei lette al Senato dagli ambasciatori Veneti nel secolo decimosettimo, p. 142

Also, in Journal of Ottoman Studies cilt 11 from 1991 (p. 184) and Osmanlı Devletinin Saray Teşkilatı (1984; page 165) from Uzunçarşılı, there are claims of Ahmed I fulfilling his aunt Hümaşah Sultan’s reguest for some appropriate allocations from the imperial kitchen. Most interesting is 82 numarali muhimme defteri, where Hümaşah Sultan gave in 1617 some kethudas to her nephew Ahmed I, he even refers to her as hȃlem Hümaşah Sultan (derived hrom hala, which means aunt). I strongly suggest she being daughter of Safiye Sultan, as she was given name in honour of Şehzade Mehmed’s daughter who gifted her mother to her father. I also suggest she was the youngest of her siblings, being born around 1580. As she was child in 1580s, ambassadors probably didn’t have the chance to see her and she was confined to Topkapi. She received the highest salary for princess, beside four daughters of Kösem Sultan, as she was full-sister of Sultan. She also gifts during reign of Sultan Ibrahim, and on list of fourteen princesses which received gifts from envoys in 1655, in book ‘’Acta et diplomata Ragusina’’ she is reffered as Inasce sultana moglie di Hassan pascia.

Also, there were other daughters of Murad III, who were not daughters of Safiye Sultan.

In mass marriage ceremony in 1613, seven daughters of Murad III who resided in Old Palace were given to court officials. According to book Topçular Katibi Abdülkadir Efendi Tarihi  (p. 624), we are given identities of husbands of those Sultanas

Küçük Mirahur Mehmed Aga

Mirahur-I Evvel Muslu Aga

Bostancıbaşı Hasan Aga

Cığalazade Mehmed Bey

Kurşuncuzade Mustafa Pasha

Kefe Beylerbesi Mehmed Pasha

Kapucıbaşı Topal Mehmed Pasha

Also, author puts in footnotes that there was one daughter of Murad III who married in Shaban of 1022 H. (September 1613) governor of Rumelia Ahmed Pasha.

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* In work Bu mülkün kadın sultanları by Sakaoğlu, Fahri Sultan is claimed to be married to Çukadar Ahmed Pasha in 1604, who died in 1618. Year 1604 is incorrect, as she was married to him in 1613. Additionaly, in work Searching for Osman by Tezcan Baki, on page 328, it is claimed that daughter of Murad III who married governor of Rumelia Ahmed Pasha (later governor of Damascus; died 1618)  remarried to Çerkez Mehmed Ali Pasha, who was Grand Vizier of Murad IV. Actually, this Ahmed Pasha was Mirahur Ahmed Pasha, who was governor of Damascus from 1617 until 1618 (I checked on world statesmen site). It seems that Çukadar and Mirahur Ahmed Pasha are the same person, but it seems that when Murad III’s daughter Mihrimah Sultan died, pasha was remarried to Fahri Sultan. Additionally, her marriage to Grand Vizier would explain why she received the highest salary of 430 aspers in 1639. She was not daughter of Safiye Sultan, but she was wife of Grand Vizier of Murad III, thus being given the highest salary among full-sisters of sultans. According to Ulucay, Fahri Sultan remarried to Soffi Bayram Pasha, which is true, because she was recorded in 1639 as widow of his, and received gifts from Ragusan envoys as his widow. Interestingly, it seems that she remarried during reign of Sultan Ibrahim to certain Dilaver Pasha, who was vizier under Mehmed IV and died in 1656. In list of gifts, she was referred as Fahre sultan, moglie di Dilaver pascia in 1648, 1662, 1670 and 1676. She is recorded in Acta et diplomata Ragusina, which provides gifts for fourteen Sultanas in 1655 as Faslite sultana, moglie di Lauer bassa. There are also court records from 1662:

Eyüb Mahkemesi (Havass-ı Refia) 74 Numaralı Sicil (H. 1072 - 1073 / M. 1661 - 1662)

III. Murad’ın kızı Fahrî Sultan’ın kocası Dilâver Paşa’dan intikal eden malları satan vekili Süleyman Bey’den herhangi bir alacağı kalmadığı Husûs-ı âti’l-beyânı mahallinde tahrîr için kıbel-i şer‘den bi’t-taleb irsâl olunan mevlânâ Sâlih Efendi b. Mehmed, ol dahi zeyl-i kitâbda muharrerü’l-esâmî olan müslimîn ile medîne-i hazret-i Ebâ Eyyûb el-Ensârî -dâme fî rıdvâni’l-Bârî- de vâki‘ Debbâğlar Deresi demekle ma‘rûf mahalde sâkine fahrü’l-muhadderât zevi’l-muvakkarât tâcü’l-mestûrât aliyyetü’z-zât safiyyetü’s-sıfât Fahrî Sultan bt. el-merhûm el-mebrûr ed-darrâc ilâ medârici rahmeti Rabbihi’l-gafûr Sultan Murad Hân -aleyhi’r-rahmeti ve’l-gufrân- hazretlerinin sa‘âdet-hânelerine varılıp akd-i meclis-i şer‘-i şerîf olundukda, sultân-ı müşârün-ileyhâ meclis-i ma‘kūd-ı mezkûrda, işbu kitâb-ı sıhhat-nisâbın sâhibi kıdvetü’l-emâcid ve’l-ekârim câmi‘ü’l-mehâmid ve’l-mekârim Sultanzâde Süleyman Bey b. el-merhûm Davud Paşa mahzarında tav‘an ikrâr ve takrîr-i kelâm edip bundan akdem fevt olan zevcim merhûm Dilâver Paşa zimmetinde mütekarrir olan mehr-i müeccelim mukābelesinde mecmû‘-ı muhallefâtı hatt-ı şerîf-i sa‘âdet-makrûn ile bana ihsân buyurulmağın ben dahi muhallefât-ı müteveffâ-yı mezbûru izn-i hâkim-i askerî ile sûk-ı sultânîde semen-i misli ile bey‘ ve kabz-ı semen ve bana îsâle mûmâ-ileyh Süleyman Bey’i tarafımdan vekîl ve nâib-i menâb nasb ve ta‘yîn eylediğimde ol dahi vekâlet-i mezbûreyi kabûl ve târih-i mezbûrda mahrûse-i Galata’da kassâm-ı askerî olan Hasan Efendi ma‘rifetiyle muhallefât-ı müteveffâ-yı mezbûru sûk-ı sultânîde bi’l-vekâle bey‘ ve kabz-ı semen eyledikden sonra defter-i kassâm mûcebince makbûzu olan meblağı tamamen bana def‘ ve teslîm, ben dahi kabz ve tesellüm etmişidim el-hâletü hâzihî husûs-ı mezbûra ve mütâlebât ve eymân ve muhâsamâtdan mûmâ-ileyh Süleyman Bey’in zimmetini ibrâ-i âmm-ı kātı‘ü’n-nizâ‘ ile ibrâ ve iskāt eyledim min ba‘d mûmâ-ileyh Süleyman Bey ile merhûm Dilâver Paşa muhallefâtına ve sâir husûsa müte‘allik da‘vâ ve nizâ‘ım yokdur, zuhûr dahi ederse lede’l-hükkâmi’l-kirâm kebîrihimi’llâhi’l-meliki’l-Allâm mesmû‘a ve makbûle olmasın deyicek gıbbe’t-tasdîki’ş-şer‘iyyi’l-vicâhiyyi’l-mu‘teber mâ hüve’l-vâki‘ kayd şüd. Fi’l-yevmi’s-sâbi‘ min şehri Ramazâni’l-mübârek li sene isneteyn ve seb‘în ve elf.

Also, in document dated from late 1662, which is about vakfiye of Fahri Sultan, she mentions at the end her sister Saime Sultan. Source:

11 numarali Istanbul Mahkemesi Defteri (H. 1073) pp. 303-304

On page 304, you will see Fahri Sultan refers to her as kız karındaşım Sâ’ime Sultân hazretlerini.

But, this Saime Sultan was also on list of gifts; in 1642 she was referred as wife of Topal Ahmed Pasha, and in 1648 she is referred as wife of Sarhoş Mehmed Pasha. In 1662 and 1670, she received gifts as widow, but in 1676 she was not mentioned, which means that she died in early 1670s.

One of the daughters of Murad III was Beyhan Sultan. There is a proof of her being daughter of Murad III:

Eyüb Mahkemesi (Havass-ı Refia) 37 Numaralı Sicil (H. 1047 / M. 1637 - 1638)

Beyhan Sultan bt. Sultan Murad Hân’ın tasarrufundaki menzil, bostan, çayır ve tarlaları Fâtıma Hatun bt. Abdüttevvâb’a sattığı Fahrü’l-muhadderât zahrü’l-muvakkarât tâcü’l-mestûrât, iklîletü’l-muhassenât Âişetü’z-zamân Fâtımatü’l-evân Beyhan Sultan bt. el-merhûm el-mebrûr ed-dâricü ilâ medârici’l-rahmeti’l-gafûr Sultan Murad Hân hazretlerinin taraf-ı şerîflerinden bey‘ ve tefvîz-i âti’z-zikri ikrâra vekîl olup vekâleti müşârün-ileyhâ hazretlerin ma‘rifet-i şer‘iyye ile ârifeyn olan zahrü’l-kuzât Mehmed Efendi b. ( ) el-Kadı ve Hâssa Baltacıları kethüdâsı olan el-Hâc Mehmed et-Teberdâr şehâdetleriyle sâbit olan kıdvetü’l-emâsil ve’l-akrân Câbir Ağa b. Abdülmennân mahfil-i kazâda Sultân-ı müşârün-ileyhâ hazretlerinin kethüdâları olan sâhib-i hâze’l-kitâb kıdvetü’l-muhadderât zübdetü’l-muvakkarât Fâtıma Hâtun bt. Abdüttevvâb tarafından dahi ikrâr-ı câ’i’l-beyânı tasdîka vekîl olup vekâleti mezbûre Fâtıma Hâtun’u ma‘rifet-i şer‘iyye ile ârifeyn olan Rıdvan Bey b. Abdullah ve Mustafa Bey b. Abdullah şehâdetleriyle sâbite olan fahrü’l-cüyûş Cafer Çavuş b. Abdullah muvâcehesinde bi’l-vekâle ikrâr-ı da‘vâ edip müvekkilem Sultân-ı müşârün-ileyhâ hazretlerinin silk-i mülk-i sahîhinde münselik olan emlâkinden olup Havâss-ı Aliyye kazâsı müzâfâtından Terkos nâhiyesine Kiteli nâm karyede vâki‘ bir tarafdan Osman Paşa mülkü ve bir tarafdan zikri âtî olan çiftliğe tâbi‘ olan çayır ve bir tarafı Sinan ve bir tarafı ba‘zan câmi‘-i şerîf ve ba‘zan tarîk-i âm ile mahdûd beş bâb tahtânî odayı ve bir sofayı ve bir anbarı ve harâba müşrif hamamı ve bir büyük ahırı ve bir küçük ahırı ve bir fırını ve harman kenarında vâki‘ samanlığı ve câmi‘-i şerîf kurbunda vâki‘ iki bâb tahtânî odayı müştemil çiftlik ta‘bîr olunur mülk menzilini ve menzil-i merkūm dâhilinde üç re’s kara sığır öküzünü ve demiriyle iki sabanı ve bir arabayı ve bir döğeni ve sâir âlât-ı zirâ‘at ve esbâb-ı hırâseti ve menzil-i merkūm kurbunda vâki‘ harman yerini mezbûre Fâtıma Hâtun’a fıddî nakd-i râyicü’l-vakt yetmiş beş bin akçeye tarafeynden îcâb ve kabûlü hâvî ve bey‘-i bâtt-ı sahîh-i şer‘î ve safka-i vâhide ile bey‘ ve teslîm edip ol dahi minvâl-i muharrer üzre iştirâ ve tesellüm eyledikden sonra yine karye-i mezbûre sınırı dâhilinde mevâzi‘-i adîdede vâki‘ ma‘lûmü’l-hudûd olup merhûm ve mağfûrun-leh Sultan Bayezid Hân -aleyhi’r-rahmetü ve’l-gufrân- hazretlerinin evkāf-ı şerîfesinden olan bir kıt‘a bostan yerinin ve beş kıt‘a çayırın ve tahmîmen yetmiş beş müd tohum istî‘âb eder elli kıt‘a tarlaların dahi hakk-ı tasarrufunu, mezbûrü’n-na‘t yirmi beş bin akçe bedel-i tefvîz ve evkāf-ı mezbûre mütevellîsi ma‘rifetiyle mezbûre Fâtıma Hâtun’a tevfîz edip ol dahi minvâl-i meşrûh üzre tefevvuz ve kabûl eyledikden sonra semen-i merkūm yetmiş beş bin akçe ve bedel-i tefvîz olan yirmi beş bin akçe cem‘an yüz bin akçeyi bi tamâmihî mezbûre Fâtıma Hâtun yedinden ahz ve kabz eyledi ba‘de’l-yevm zikr olunan emlâk-i mezbûre Fâtıma Hâtun’un mülk-i müşterâsı ve bostan ve çayırlar ve tarlalar dâhil-i taht-ı tasarrufu olmuşdur. Keyfe mâ teşâ’ ve tahtâr mutasarrıfe olsun dedikde vekîl-i mûmâ-ileyh Çâker Ağa’nın bi’l-vekâle cârî olan ikrâr-ı meşrûhunu vekîl-i âhar Cafer Çavuş bi’l-vekâle vicâhen tasdîk ve şifâhen tahkīk edicek mâ hüve’l-vâki‘ ketb olundu. Hurrire fi’l-yevmi’l-ışrîn min Şevvâli’l-mükerrem li sene seb‘a ve erba‘în ve elf.

It seems that Beyhan Sultan was recorded in 1648 as widow of Nideli Mustafa Pasha, who was actually Nigdeli Mustafa Pasha, who was killed in rebellion 1632. He was briefly Kapudan Pasha, governor of Egypt and defterdar. It seems that Beyhan Sultan was granted almost the highest salary (415 aspers) because of her husband’s positions during reign of Murad IV. She wasn’t of list of sultanas in 1655, so she died before that year.

I just don’t know if Nigdeli Mustafa Pasha is the same Mustafa Pasha that one of the daughters of Murad III married in 1613.

It seems that on list of gifts in 1642, there was daughter of Murad III named Abide Sultan who was wife of Muslu Pasha. Muslu Pasha was one of grooms in weddings of 1613.

There was also daughter of Murad III called Gevherhan Sultan, who died before 1639/1642, but was still alive in 1624, and was most probably wife of Bostancıbaşı Hasan Aga

Rumeli Sadâreti Mahkemesi 40 Numaralı Sicil (H. 1033-1034 / M. 1623-1624)

Vefat eden Hasan Paşa’nın III. Murad’ın kızı Gevherhan Sultan’a mehir borcu olduğu Bi’l-fi‘l atabe-i aliyyede baş defterdâr kāimmakāmı olan emîrü’l-ümerâi’l-kirâm kebîrü’l-küberâi’l-fihâm sâhibü’d-devleti ve’l-ikbâl sâhibü zeyli’l-izz ve’l-iclâl câmi‘u vücûhi’l-emvâl âmirü’l-hazâini bi-ahseni’l-a‘mâl Mehmed Paşa -dâme ikbâluhû- Dîvân-ı âlî -dâme mahfûfen bi’l-me‘âlî-’devüzerâ-i kirâm zümresinden olup azm-i dârü’s-selâm eden merhûm Hasan Paşa’nın halîle-i celîleleri dürre-i iklîlü’d-devleti’l-aliyye gurreti cebînü’l-hilâfeti’l-behiyye tâcü fırakı’n-nisvân min men lehünne ulüvvü’ş-şân sâhibetü’s-sa‘âdeti ve’l-ihsân sâhibetü zeyli’n-ni‘meti ve’l-ihsân Fâtımatü’z-zamân Âişetü’l-evân hazret-i Gevherhân Sultan bt. es-sultâni’l-a‘zam ve’l-hâkāni’l-ekrem el-merhûm el-mebrûr es-sultan Murad Hân -beşşerahullâhü te‘âlâ bi-rahmetihî minhü ve rıdvân- cenâb-ı ismet-meâblarından husûs-ı âtîye vekîl olup vekâleti nehc-i şer‘î üzere sâbite olan merhûm müşârun-ileyhin kethüdâsı fahrü’l-iştibâh Mehmed Ağa b. Abdullah mahzarında takrîr-i kelâm edip merhûm-ı mezbûrun Rumeli’nde vâki‘ hâssları mahsûlü bin otuz üç senesi Martı ibtidâsından sene-i kâmile tamâmına varınca merhûm-ı mezbûrun voyvodalarına ber vech-i maktû‘ deruhde olunmuş olup hâlâ müşârun-ileyh Hasan Paşa merhûm olmağla havâss-ı mezbûre cânib-i mîrîden zabt olunmak lâzım geldikde müşârun-ileyhâ sultan hazretleri dahi sene tamâmına varınca yine havâss-ı mezbûreyi merhûm-ı müşârun-ileyhin voyvodaları zabt edip sene tamâmına değin cümle mahsûlü vezîr-i müşârun-ileyhin mûmâ-ileyhâ sultan hazretlerine mehr-i müeccelinden olan deyni için sultan hazretlerine teslîm olunmak üzere vekîl-i mezbûr Mehmed Ağa yediyle Hazîne-i âmireye on iki yük akçe teslîm olunmağın ber vech-i meşrûh cânib-i mîrîden dahi deruhde olunmuşdur min-ba‘d havâss-ı merkūmeyi sene tamâmına varınca yine merhûm-ı müşârun-ileyhin voyvodaları zabt edip cümle mahsûl sultan hazretlerine teslîm olunup muhassıl ve müfettiş ve ümenâ taraflarından kat‘â dahl olunmayıp ta‘arruz olunmamak üzere yedlerine emr-i şerîf-i âlîşân verilmişdir dedikde gıbbe’t-tasdîk vicâhen mâ-hüve’l-vâkı‘ bi’t-taleb ketb olundu.

Also, there was daughter of Murad III called Rukiye Sultan, but we know nothing about her except she was also daughter of Şemsiruhsar Hatun.

There was one more daughter of Murad III whose name we know, Hatice Sultan. She was married in 1613 to governor of Kefe Mehmed Pasha. She was still alive in 1639, when she was recorded in harem records as wife of late Mehmed Pasha-i Kefe. She was might remarried during reign of Sultan Ibrahim to some Magrip pascia, as she is recorded in 1648.

So, my final stating is as follows:

Mihrimah Sultan (1564 — before 1613); daughter with Safiye. Her marriages went unnoticed, she was might engaged in 1590 to Siyavuş Pasha, who later refused to remarry. She was married to Mirahur Ahmed Pasha in 1604. She died during reign of her nephew Ahmed I, and after her death her husband remarried to her sister Fahri Sultan.

Ayşe Sultan (1570 — 15 May 1605); daughter with Safiye, married firstly in 1586 to Ibrahim Pasha, married secondly in 1602 to Yemişci Hasan Pasha and lastly married in 1604 to Mahmud Pasha.

Fatma Sultan (1574 — 1620); daughter with Safiye. Might married firstly in 1590 to Nişancı Kara Mehmed Pasha, married in December 1593 to Halil Pasha, married in 1604 to Cafer Pasha (vizier, kapudan pasha (1606-1608), governor of Cyprus until his death in 1609). Öztuna claims she married two more times; in 1610 married kubbe vizier Hizir Pasha (d. 1610) and in 1611 to Murad Pasha.

Hümaşah Sultan (1580 — before 1662); daughter with Safiye. Married in late reign of Mehmed III or early reign of Ahmed I to Nakkaş Hasan Pasha. She was still alive in 1655, but died before 1662.

Fahri Sultan (1594? — 1579?); married in 1613 to Ahmed Pasha (once Mirahur), who was once married to her sister Mihrimah Sultan. After his death in 1618, she remarried Çerkez Mehmed Ali Pasha, who was Grand Vizier under Murad IV. After his death she remarried Soffu Bayram Pasha, and after his death she remained a widow for long time, receiving highest salaries among Ottoman princesses as once she was wife of Grand Vizier. During reign of Sultan Ibrahim lastly married to Dilaver Pasha. After his death, she received gifts as his widow in 1662, 1670 and 1676. She was omitted from gifts in late 1670s and she complained to Grand Vizier (Miović; p. 166). She was longest-lived child of Murad III.

Beyhan Sultan (?? — before 1655); married in 1613 to Kurucubasi Mustafa Pasha, remarried later to Nigdeli Mustafa Pasha.

Hatice Sultan (?? — after 1639); married in 1613 to governor of Kefe Mehmed Pasha.

Gevherhan Sultan (?? — after 1624); married to Bostancibasi Hasan Aga.

Saime Sultan (?? — before 1676); had at least three husbands during lifetime. Shie died in first half of 1670s.

Abide Sultan (?? — before 1648); married in 1613 to Muslu Aga. She died during reign of Sultan Ibrahim.

Rukiye Sultan (?? — ??); daughter of Şemsiruhsar Hatun, maybe one of the princesses married in 1613.

2 unknown daughters

I hope you like my analysis, and that I gave you interesting sources, reading and insights. I can't wait for your reaction and comments!

You really worked hard!! Thank you for sharing this with me, I really appreciate it. (I think you should be the one running this blog lmao)

Ottoman history is kind of a pain in the ass because Ottomanists do not speak to each other, apparently; one discovers something but that something gets ignored by everyone else. Also, Turkish historians tend to not use foreign sources, and it’s such a pity because there is so much information in ambassadorial reports.

I’m not sure Mihrimah was the eldest child of Murad III. Only Sicill-i Osmani says this (Sakaoğlu just cites it) and she was not given a “famous” husband, while Ayşe married Damad Ibrahim Pasha. Unless, as you said, she had some health problem so her marriage was delayed until Ahmed I finally “forced” her to get married like his other aunts. I’m sorry if I sound stupid but I don’t understand how you calculated her age 😭. Oh wait, did you just assume a year before Mehmed III? She undoubtedly existed, though.

About the marriages of Ahmed I’s aunts, I would add this from Ragusian diplomats:

30 June 1613: “...quel medesimo giorno che noi arivamo qui si sposso una delle sultane, zia del Gran Signore per suo Capicilar Chiehaia e l’altra si dice che la setimana prosima si sposara per il Beglerbei d’Urumelia stato prima Aga di Gianizari [Mirahur Ahmed Pascià — Mihrimah!!]; et cossi di mano in mano le altre cinque ...” 17 July 1613: “Questi giorni passati dopo l’arivo nostro si sono maritate tre soltane zie del Gran Signore figliole di Murat, et altre quatro sono sposate le quali fra quatro setimane si maritarano ancor loro, le maritate sono una per il Beglerbei di Romania, l’altra per il Bostangi Bascia gran nemico nostro..., la terza soltana vi e maritata per il Capicilar Ciechaia, ancor lui homo di cativo porto, et mal disposto verso le cose nostre..., le quatro soltane sposate vi sono una per il Pascia di Cairo l’altra per l’Aga di Gianizari la terza per il Ciuciuch Ibrachor Basci, e la quatra per Basc Capici Basci del Gran Signore, vi sono adesso quindeci soltane...”

These two dispatches seem to confirm the information you found in Topçular Katibi Abdülkadir Efendi Tarihi.

It would make sense for Safiye to be Ayşe, Fatma, Mihrimah and Hümaşah’s mother because their names carry meaning for Murad III (well, Ayşe and Fatma are for religious reasons) so I would venture they’re his eldest daughters.

About one of the husbands in the 1613 mass marriage, I have found — do not ask me where, I don’t remember — that Sülün Muslu Pasha was a vizier during the reign of Ahmed I. He could be Abide’s husband, as the Ragusians called him “Sulun Muslia”.

What about (in Öztuna):

MlHRBÂN SULTÂN: Med.Murâd III T. =Dâmâd Topal Mehmed Ağa, kapıcıbaşı, izd.21.2.1613.

Did you find anything about her? Uluçay, on the other hand, didn’t assign a husband to her but said that she was buried in the mausoleum of Murad III (the source is Hadikatü’l-Cevami). He also cited Uzunçarşılı’s Osmanlı Devletinin Saray Teşkilatı, page 162, but I couldn’t find anything about her in there. Or maybe it’s just Mihrimah but Hadikatü’l-Cevami called her Mihriban. According to Alderson, she was a consort instead.

Off topic but I can’t believe that Saime is an actual name because it’s so original. I spent hours trying to find an Ottoman name who sounded like Seime, when I first found it in Ragusian reports 😭

Anyway, you’re a really good historian!!

[haticesultanas]

Sorry to bother you in this account, I would have a question about Ümmügülsüm Sultan, the possible daughter of Ahmed I. The relazione of Angelo Alessandri from 1637, Page 649 says: "Ha il Gran Signore di congionti per sangue quatro sorelle ancora, ma fuori di seraglio, essendo tutte maritate in visiri." And since I am not really speaking italian, I am not sure if "per sangue quatro sorelle" means full-sister or just a way to say sister (and so can mean half sister too). One of my followers - who says he speaks italian - says it means full-sister and confirms that beside Ayse, Fatma and Hanzade there was another full-sister of Murad IV. I mean while I have my doubts, Alderson also lists one Ümmügülsüm (wife of Halil Pasha) based on harem registers, who had the same amount of salary in 1639 as Ayse, Fatma and Hanzade, the daughters of Kösem (and some other women - possible daughters of Murad III had the same amount, while Atike and one Hatice possibly daughters of Ahmed I had less salary). Also, there is the known other register that you also mentioned on ottomanladies page, based on Tezcan: “A privy purse register from 1622 gives the names of five unmarried princesses, who may be daughters of Ahmed, Osman II, and even Mehmed III: Umm-i Külsum, Hanzade, Halime, Fatma, and Akile.” The fact that there was one Ümmügülsüm in 1622 who was still unmarried, and then in 1639 she had the same amount of stipend as Ayse, Fatma, Hanzade and the relazione mentioning that 4 (full)sister thing, maybe suggests that Kösem and Ahmed MAY had another daughter together, Ümmügülsüm? What do you think?

Hello! I guess my askbox on ottomanladies is still closed.

So, your follower is right; what Angelo Alessandri says in his relazione is that Murad IV has four full-blooded sisters who all live outside the palace because they are married. When I read this part, I simply assumed that the fourth princess was Gevherhan but we don’t have any information about her after Recep Pasha’s death in 1632. Then, I assumed he was wrong because it wouldn’t be the first time a European ambassador mistook half-siblings for full-blooded siblings.

About Ümmügülsüm, I have always assumed he was a daughter of Mehmed III’s or Murad III’s. I have never paid attention to her, as I’m sure you know from my posts on ottomanladies.

But you made me curious so I spent some time looking into this.

First, I think you meant Dumas when you mentioned that list based on harem registers because I have found it in Les Perles de Nacre du Sultanate. Alderson doesn’t list an Ümmügülsüm Sultan among Ahmed I’s daughters (unless I somehow missed it).

Secondly, I think there is a problem with this source: on page 62, the register is from February 1649 to February 1650. In Annex A, though, (page 461), she says that the same register is dated February 1639. So what is the truth? February 1639, because the register keeps saying “Şevval 1048”, and that’s February-March 1639 (you can google it). The mistake on page 62 is… weird, though.

Moreover, the list above is somewhat different from the transliteration she put in Annexe A. For example, on page 463 she says that the register says “Hümaşah Sultan merhum Nakkaş Hasan Pasha”, but on the list she put on page 62, the same Hümaşah Sultan is married to one Hüseyin Pasha. I don’t understand why she changed the source without addressing it— or is it just a typing mistake? I hope it is because I think Hümaşah Sultan was truly married to Nakkaş Hasan Pasha: Nakkaş Hasan Pasha was identified as married to one of Ahmed I’s aunts by the Baron de Selignac, and a letter dated 6 October 1642 by a Ragusian diplomat lists among Ibrahim’s aunts one “Humascie sultana moglie di Hasan Pascia [Hümaşah sultan wife of Hasan Pasha]”. In another letter, this one dated 7 July 1648, Hümaşah is identified as “moglie di Nachasc Hasanpascia Humasce sultan vedova [Hümaşah sultan, widow of Nakkaş Hasan Pasha]”.

If Dumas voluntarily changed Hasan Pasha into Hüseyin Pasha then I don’t know why she did it because contemporary evidence suggests that this princess called Hümaşah was Ahmed I’s aunt and therefore Ibrahim’s great-aunt (I won’t fault the Ragusian diplomat for not stating the difference because it wasn’t done often at the time), and was married to Nakkaş Hasan Pasha, who is called “merhum” in the harem register because he was deceased at the time.

Similarly, on page 462, it is listed one “Kameri Sultan merhum Sofi Bayram Pasha”, but on the list on page 62, she is called Fahri. Again, what prompted Dumas to change the wife’s name? Is it because Öztuna says that Fahri/Fahriye Sultan (daughter of Murad III) was married to Sofu Bayram Pasha? Then again, why was she called Kameri in the register? Is it a mistake from the clerk or did she have multiple names? Or did Dumas transliterate her name wrong? Or did she change the princess’ name into Fahri because that’s what Öztuna says? Interestingly, in the family trees in Annex B, she’s called Fahri again. The same Ragusian diplomat above also lists the wife of Bayram Pasha: “Vanni sultana moglie di Soffi Bariam Pascia”; unfortunately I cannot say what Vanni should be because it doesn’t sound like Kameri at all. It could sound like Fahri but… it’s a stretch.

Beyhan Sultan, Safiye Sultan, and Mihrimah Sultan are widows too but it’s difficult to identify them because their husbands are one “Mustafa Pasha”, one “Mehmed Pasha”, and a “Mehmed Pasha from Kefe”. I tried to google this Mehmed Pasha from Kefe and everyone says he was married to Mihrimah Sultan, daughter of Murad III. The problem is the sources of this claim (on those websites) do not say this. The Ragusian letter talks about a Beyhan Sultan married to a “Mustai Pascia” which could be Mustafa Pasha, but this is all I have to say.

I also would like to highlight that the princesses listed in the Ragusian letter are those who received gifts from the Ragusian diplomat so there could have been more, especially aunts.

As for “Atike Sultan Kenan Pasha” (who receives 9,900 aspers per month): she seems to be Ahmed I’s daughter Atike (also confirmed by the Ragusian letter, who lists her among Ibrahim's sister).

Now, about “Ümmügülsüm Sultan Halil Pasha” (who receives 12,900 aspers per month): I still personally maintain that she was an aunt and not a sister. I could not identify her, nor her husband Halil Pasha, but we have to keep in mind that we don’t have all the names of Mehmed III’s daughters. In the Ragusian letter dated 1648, there’s one “moglie di Hersechli Ahmet Pascia Iumi sultan [wife of Hersekli (? it could mean that he comes from Herzegovina) Ahmed Pasha, Iumi Sultan” (Iumi kind of sounds like Ümmi). It’s basically ten years later Dumas' list so she could have changed husband in the meantime but unfortunately, I couldn’t identify “Hersechli Ahmet Pascia”— if someone else has information about him, please do not hesitate to share (with sources, please).

I’m sorry this was so long and unhelpful, I was carried away :(((

EDIT: I have found the Ragusian letters in V. Miović - Per favore della Soltana: Powerful Ottoman Women and Ragusan Diplomats

[reallifesultanas]

Lets talk about Ümmügülsüm Sultan

There is a chance, that Kösem and Ahmed had another daughter together: Ümmügülsüm.

I am so glad, that with Anonymous sender and Ottomanladies, the truth came to light. Ottomanladies answered very long and very detailed about Ümmügülsüm, she shared her thoughts about the topic, now, here, you can find a conclusion from me:

What we know:

A privy purse register from 1622 gives the names of five unmarried princesses, who may be daughters of Ahmed, Osman II, and even Mehmed III: Umm-i Külsum(=Ümmügülsüm), Hanzade, Halime, Fatma, and Akile. Hanzade and Fatma were Kösem's daughters; Akile is possibly mistaken for Atike or Abide; Halime might be Mehmed III's daughter, named after her mother, Halime. But Ümmügülsüm was less clear.

The relazione of Angelo Alessandri from 1637 says that Murad IV had four FULL-sisters. We know three of them: Ayse, Fatma, and Hanzade. But who could be the fourth? Gevherhan was already dead, Atike was well-knownly not a full-sister and also not Abide. Maybe Ümmügülsüm?

There are some decisions and letters of Murad IV, where he mentions Ümmügülsüm as a sister of his. He uses the same wording that he used for Ayse, who undoubtedly was his full-sister, suggesting Ümmügülsüm was also a full-sister of his.

The 1638/39 harem registers mention one Ümmügülsüm Sultan who received the highest payments besides the three already known daughters of Kösem (Ayse, Fatma, Hanzade) and two daughters of Murad III. This means she could be either the daughter of Murad III or Ahmed I. But since Ahmed I's other daughter, Atike - who was not Kösem's - got a lesser stipend, if Ümmügülsüm is Ahmed I's daughter, she had to be Kösem's daughter too and so she is the fourth full-sister of Sultan Murad IV.

In 1648 the Raguzan envoy also mentions her (possibly her as they use the name Iumi), as the wife of Ahmed Pasha, governor of Herzegovina. They probably married ~1642 until the pasha's death in 1648. This was her second marriage, her first husband was one Halil Pasha, with whom she married before 1638.

In book ''Whisper of the cities'' one Ümmühan Sultan is mentioned as she met with the English ambassador's wife. Based on her, Ümmühan was said to be the aunt of deposed Mehmed IV and sister of Ibrahim I. This happened in 1690, so she still was alive then.

There are still questions:

Why no historian ever discovered this information as none of the evidence is new?

Why Ümmi is not mentioned among Ahmed I's children?

Where is she buried? *

When was she born? *

Why Ibrahim did not force her to serve Telli Hümasah (his wife) when he did it to all of the other daughters of Kösem?

To be honest the burial place of Ahmed I is quite a mess. For example there are two sarcofagies for 'Zeynep' daughters of Ahmed I. One of the sarcofagies stands for an adult woman. There was no daughter of Ahmed, called Zeynep who reached adulthood. So maybe the name is mistaken and that Ümmügülsüm. Maybe she was buried somewhere else as she lived a quite long life, survivin everyone around her and her grave is not idetified yet.

Considering the known children of Kösem and their birth date, the most possible for Ümmügülsüm is that she was born during the late reign of Ahmed I. In 1605 Kösem gave birth to Mehmed; in 1606 or 1607 to Ayse; then in 1607 or 1608 to Fatma; in 1609 to Hanzade. While I see that there is a gap here for one more child (if Kösem got pregnant extremely rapidly), she cannot be older than Fatma, as she was also not married off in 1622 yet, and also since we know quite precisely the sequence of these daughters, I do not think another one was born here but no one knows about her. It would be strange. Then in 1612, she gave birth to Murad, but between him and Hanzade there was time for another child - let it be Selim who was born in 1611 or Ümmügülsüm. Then Kasim followed Murad quite quickly, he was born in 1614, and then Ibrahim came in 1615, so there was no time for anyone else between Murad and Ibrahim. After 1615 there is another chance for the birth of Ümmügülsüm. So she either was born after Hanzade (~1611), or after Ibrahim (~1616). Either way - considering she was not just still alive in 1690, but was surely not suffering, dying since she was involved in the diplomacy meeting - she possibly died in the 1690s, she very probably reached 80 maybe even more in the end.

[rhaenahanzades]

As you know, in 1655, fourteen sultanas received gifts from Ragusian envoys:

1. Fatma sultana moglie di Fasli passa

2. Ghiusciahato sultana moglie di Chienan passa

3. Behar sultana moglie di passa di Cairo

4. Caia sultana moglie di Melek passa

5. Ruckie sultana moglie di Telak Mustafa passa

6. Fatisce sultana moglie di Haidar passa

7. Aisce sultana stata moglie di Gascir passa

8. Fatma sultana moglie di Jusuf passa

9. Vsci sultana moglie di Ahmet passa

10. Faslite sultana moglie di Lauer passa

11. Fatige sultana moglie di Jusuf basci

12. Inasce sultana moglie di Hassan passa

13. Hatige sultana moglie di Jusuf Gesali

14. Safie sultana moglie di Haidar Sade, figlia di sultan Murat

______________

1. Fatma Sultan binti Ibrahim, wife of Fasli pasha

2. Gevherhan Sultan binti Ibrahim, wife of Sari Kenan Pasha

3. Beyhan Sultan binti İbrahim, wife of Haseki Mehmed Pasha

4. Kaya Sultan binti Murad IV, wife of Melek Ahmed Pasha

5. Rukiye Sultan binti Murad IV wife of Tellak Mustafa Pasha

6. ???

7. Ayşe Sultan binti Ahmed I, wife of Ibşir Pasha

8. Fatma Sultan binti Ahmed I, wife of Koca Yusuf Pasha

9. Ümmügülsüm Sultan binti Ahmed I, wife of Ahmed Pasha

10. Fahrihan Sultan binti Murad III, wife of Dilaver Pasha

11. Atike Sultan binti Ahmed I, wife of Doğancı Yusuf pasha

12. Hümaşah Sultan binti Murad III, wife of Nakkaş Hasan Pasha

13. Hatice Sultan binti Murad III(?), wife of Jusuf pasha

14. Safiye Sultan binti Murad IV, wife of Haydarzade Mehmed Pasha

I have problem to identify certain Fatisce sultana, wife of certain Haydar Pasha. It could be misspelled by Ayşe, Atike, even Hatice. And I don't know whose daughter it could be. Maybe Turhan's daughter, Atike Ayşe Sultan? I don't know...

I wanted to ask you what do you think of this, who the sultana and the pasha are, because I am not sure.

Hi! Well, I'm sorry that I can't be of much help with this. I also have no idea who this princess could be, though I've been curious about her too. From what I searched about it before, there was apparently not an influential Haydar Pasha in that period (by influential I mean a vizier or admiral), which makes me think this princess might've not been exactly Turhan's daughter, maybe just one of Ibrahim's with a random woman. But as we know, there were cases were less influential matches for daughters of Hasekis and/or Valides were made depending on the situation (aka Hanzade with Bayram Pasha, which was a very specific situation). Unfortunately, we know nothing about this Haydar Pasha to make much with it and much less of what might've been his role in politics of that time.

[pedanticseal]

Here's mine

What if when we were born we were each assigned a Wikipedia page like a social security number would that be fucked up or what

[sevgilisultana]

Sultanate of Women (3/7)

Afife Nurbanu Sultan (c.1525/ 7 December 1583)

Daughter of Nicolo Venier and Violanta Baffo

Haseki Sultan (Legal Wife) of Sultan Selim II and Valide Sultan of Sultan Murad III

Mother of Sultan Murad III, Sah Sultan, Ismihan Sultan, Gevherhan Sultan, and Fatma Sultan

Grandmother of Sultan Mehmed III, Sehzade Mahmud, Sehzade Mustafa, Sehzade Oman, Sehzade Bayezid, Sehzade Selim, Sehzade Cihangir, Sehzade Abdullah, Sehzade Ahmed, Sehzade Yakub, Sehzade Alemsah, Sehzade Yusuf, Sehzade Hüseyin, Sehzade Korkud, Sehzade Ali, Sehzade Ishak, Sehzade Alaeddin, Sehzade Davud, Sehzade Suleiman, Sehzade Yahya, Hümasah Sultan, Ayse Sultan, Fatma Sultan, Mihrimah Sultan, Rukiye Sultan, Mihriban Sultan, and Fahriye Sultan.

Mother-in-law of Çakırcıbaşı Hasan Pasha, Zal Mahmud Pasha, Sokullu Mehmed Pasha, Kalaylıkoz Ali Pasha, Safiye Sultan, Piyale Pasha, Cerrah Mehmed Pasha, and Kanijeli Siyavuş Pasha

Fun Fact For Newbies: Nurbanu Sultan was born Cecilia Venier-Baffo

[fymagnificentwomcn]

Was Selim II monogamous too ? Can you please give us some interesting facts about Nurbanu and Selim's relationship like you did with her son Murad and his consort Safiye

When it comes to his princely years it’s debatable, after he ascended the throne he surely produced several sons that had mothers other than Nurbanu. Actually, Nurbanu didn’t give birth to any more children after Selim became sultan, but similarly to Safiye she remained the closest woman to her padişah and received the highest stipend. Other mothers of Selim’s sons don’t even have their names mentioned in register, they are only referred to as “mother of prince X”. Nurbanu definitely established her position during Selim’s princely years, likely managing his harem, since Hürrem stayed in capital.

Leslie Peirce originally wrote in the Imperial Harem that Selim and Mustafa (in contrast to Bayezid and his large family) practiced reproductive monogamy during their princely years, but she contradicted it in her newest publication, the Empress of the East:

This prince [Mustafa] was not a prolific reproducer, however, at least in comparison to his half brother Selim, who would have three concubines pregnant not long after his arrival in Konya.

Later she mentions that:

Both she [Hurrem] and Cihangir were doubtless delighted to meet the three daughters who had been born to the prince in his first year as governor in Anatolia. The mother of one, Nurbanu, would go on to become Selim’s favorite consort and mother of his first son, Murad.

And:

Selim left behind the onetime experience of a politically active queen working alongside a monogamous king and its perhaps unintended corollary, a mother dividing her loyalty among several princes. Selim did, however, establish a favorite: Nurbanu, mother of his first son, Murad. He was far from monogamous; nor was she celebrated as his queen, although he allegedly married and dowered her.

Curiously, Öztuna thinks that three daughters usually attiributed to Nurbanu, i.e.  Ismihan, Gevherhan and Şah, were these three daughters born in the same year and Nurbanu was only mother of one, Ismihan. He also claims that Nurbanu’s other children were Murad (indisputable) and Fatma (disputable, as I will later discuss). Most scholars cite Nurbanu as mother of Gevherhan and Şah too, so I’d stay with that, though we have no names provided for those other two daughters born to Selim during his first year in Konya. It is however possible that their names got lost, especially if they didn’t survive infancy, which could be very likely the case. As for Fatma Sultan - Peirce contests Uluçay’s claim that Fatma was Nurbanu’s daughter:

The birth of Fatma to Selim II in 1559, which appears as an anomoly in the productive politics of the times as I have reconstructed them, may make some sense from this perspective. Nurbanu’s son Murad left for the provinces in 1558; if her sexual role ceased at that point, Fatma may have been the result of Selim’s new relationship with another concubine. This was probably an unintended birth, since no other children appear to have been born between 1546 (the year of Murad’s birth) and Selim’s accession in 1566. The attempt to induce Murad III to give up his monogamous relationship with Safiye seems to have intensified around the time Safiye’s son Mehmed took up his post (1582).

Some quotes from ambassadors about Nurbanu and Selim’s relationship:

Venetian ambassafor Jacopo Soranzo in 1566:

“the Chassechi [haseki]…. is said to be extremely well loved and honored by His Majesty both for her great beauty and for being unusually intelligent.”

Venetian ambassafor Andrea Badoaro in 1573 (so a year before Selim’s death)

“she is called the cassachi and is much loved by his majesty.”

Venetian ambassafor Marino Cavalli in relation to Venetian Senate 1568 (he was an ambassador in Istanbul from 1557 to 1559):

“Among many women possessed by this Signor, there is one who is truly and properly his wife, like La Rossa was to Solimano, his father… For what is being circulated, she is a Corfiote subject of your Seignory, a Noble Venetian, as some would emphasize. She is a wise woman and has a single son with the Signor, called Sultan Murath, who is currently  twenty-one years of age”.

Jacopo Ragazzoni mentioned that Selim married her, bestowing a dowry of 100,00 ducats.

She received much higher stipend than mothers of other Selim’s sons - 1,000 aspers a day, while all the others only 40 aspers a day (bear in mind that her son was also clearly singled out as heir to the throne). Nurbanu was also the first concubine to be buried in the tomb of the sultan that used to be her master.

- Joanna

[whiteroseofthemoon]

Muhteşem Yüzyıl (Magnificent Century) fancast: Daughters of Hürrem Haseki Sultan. Second generation.

1. Hümaşah Sultan (1540-1593) - daughter of Şehzade Mehmed of the Ottoman Empire.Like her cousin Ayşe Hümaşah Sultan, she was reportedly beloved by their grandfather, to whom she wrote letters.She is regarded amongst the most influential women of Suleiman's reign.This affection can be explained, in large measure, by the fact that her late father, Mehmed, was Suleiman's favorite son. It was she who, in 1563, gifted her cousin Şehzade Murad (future Sultan Murad III) with a concubine that would go on to be Safiye Sultan.

2. Ayşe Hümaşah Sultan (1541–1594) -  daughter of Mihrimah Sultan of the Ottoman Empire and Rüstem Pasha. She was her parents' first child and only daughter, and possibly her grandparents' first grandchild as well. She had several brothers, whose number and names are though contested.

3. Ismihan Sultan (1544 – 1585) -  daughter of Selim II and Nurbanu Sultan. She was the most powerful daughter of Selim II because she was married to the Grand Vizier Sokollu Mehmed Pasha. She is famous for having built the Sokollu Mehmed Pasha Mosque and Esmahan Sultan Mosque.

4. Gevherhan Sultan (1544 - after 1604) -  daughter of Sultan Selim II and Nurbanu Sultan. Soon after his succession, Mehmed's son by Handan Sultan, Ahmed I wanted to express his gratitude to Mehmed Pasha and Gevherhan Sultan for the role they had played in bringing his parents together. He also named one of his daughters after her.

5. Şah Sultan (1545 – 1580) -  daughter of Selim II and Nurbanu Sultan. The union of Şah Sultan to Zal Mahmud is said to be a very happy one. They were suited to each another. It was said that, that they fell ill at the same time, lay in their deathbeds together, and expired at the same very moment. 

6. Fatma Sultan (1559–1580) -  daughter of Sultan Selim II. Fatma was born in 1559,during Selim's princedom, at Konya or Karaman where he served as sanjakbey, or provincial governor, at the time.

7. Mihrimah Sultan (1547 – 1594) - daughter of Şehzade Bayezid. Married in 1562 to Damat Müzaffer Pasha.

8. Hatice Sultan and Hanzade Sultan (1550/1556-?) -  daughters of Şehzade Bayezid.

9. Ayşe Sultan (1553- 1572) -  daughter of Şehzade Bayezid. Married in 1562 to Damat Hoca Ali Pasha Eretnaoğlu.

[thefreakyfun]

NURBANU SULTAN FACTS (6/22)

In the harem of sehzade Selim Nurbanu gave birth to four children in a row. First they had three daughters - Hatice Gevherhan Sultan (early 1544), Esmahan Sultan (late 1544) and Sah Sultan (1545), and then on July 4th, 1546 - the son Murad, the future Ottoman sultan Murad III.

There is also a version that, in the absence of exact dates for the birth of daughters Nurban and Selim, daughters Gevherhan Sultan and Esmahan Sultan were twins. In the harem of sehzade Selim in Manisa, he had children only from Nurbanu, as evidenced by the entries in the harem books. In 1559, their youngest daughter Fatma Sultan (?) was born, after which Nurbanu stopped giving birth.

[nellygwyn]

The career of Mehmed III's son and successor, Ahmed I (r. 1603-1617), was very much like that of Süleyman: he chose as his haseki his second or third concubine, Mahpeyker Sultan, known popularly as Kösem. While Hürrem was the woman of the Ottoman dynasty best known in Europe, it is Kösem who is remembered by Turks as the most powerful. Kösem's career was similar to that of Hürrem's in important respects. She had a large number of children and may have ultimately been the sultan's only sexual partner. She was the mother of the sultans Murad IV and Ibrahim, of the prince Kasim, and perhaps of the prince Süleyman: her daughters included Ayşe, Fatma, Hanzade, and perhaps Gevherhan, whose husbands she relied on in political dealings. In 1612, the Venetian ambassador, Simon Contarini, described Kösem as a woman of 'beauty and shrewdness and furthermore....of many talents, she sings excellently, whence she continues to be well loved by the king. Not that she is respected by all, but she is listened to in some matters and is the favourite of the king, who wants her by his side continually.' According to Cristoforo Valier in 1616, Kösem was the most powerful of the sultan's intimate associates: 'she can do what she wishes with the King and possesses his heart absolutely, nor is anything ever denied to her'

the relationship between Sultan Ahmed I and his haseki (favourite), Kösem Sultan.

Leslie Peirce, The Imperial Harem: Women and Sovereignty in the Ottoman Empire

[ottomanladies]

Well, I'd have to disagree that the marriage of December 1593 is to the princess who married the Beylerbeyi of Greece. That wedding is Fatma Sultan's to Halil Pasha, which was magnificently celebrated.

Sorry :( Answering long asks is very time consuming and I got confused.

YOU FOUND THE GOVERNOR OF RUMELIA IN 1590??? OMG I SPENT WEEKS LOOKING FOR HIM. how did i miss him in Sicill-i Osmani :(( I literally searched “Rumeli” in all the volumes :((

Anyways.

I think you may be right, after all. In The “Reluctant” Admiral: Damad Halil Pasha and the Ottoman Navy (1595-1598), E. Türkçelik says:

Halil Pasha’s first serious rival appears to be Hızır Pasha, who was a probable candidate in becoming son-in-law of Sultan Murad III. Hızır Pasha had become vizier in 1591 and was awarded a seat in the Imperial Council after his successful handling of the crisis between the Polish King and the sultan in favour of the Ottomans. Since then, he was held in good esteem by Murad III, was favoured by Safiye Sultan, and was seen as a prospective husband of Fatma Sultan. However, although Hızır Pasha had held expectations for quite a while to become sultan’s son-in-law, the dynasty preferred Halil Pasha in 1593.

So basically Hızır Pasha was governor of Rumelia from 1589 to 1591, when he was promoted to vizier.

Maybe the Venetian ambassador assumed that Fatma would marry him (just like Hızır Pasha assumed lol).

For why Ayşe could look for an appointment for a brother-in-law of hers named Mehmed Pasha is a question. Her husband Ibrahim Pasha is not really known to have had brothers or sisters as I far as I know, but there's always a possibility a sister of his married one Mehmed Pasha.

Oh, this makes sense. I’ve never looked at it from Ibrahim’s point of view; I always assumed Ayşe was helping one of her sisters… but this actually makes sense.

Thanks for telling us!!

kehribar-sultan: Well thakns four your appreciation, yeah, I really tried hard......But, first I would like to say some words about your comment: 1) I would like to get your acceptance and recognition of possibility that Safiye had all of these four daughters. I would stress out that ambassadors only talked about children of the Topkapi Palace who were notable in political life (case with Murad IV’s four full sisters). I do not agree with you, Ahmed Pasha (Mirahur in 1604) was named governor of Rumelia two times; firstly in 1614 and secondly in 1614. And he wasn’t Aga of the jannisaries. The Pasha you’ve mentioned is someone else. Beside, I found in Dumas’s 2013 book that Mihrimah was same as Mihriban (page 82, note 171). Anyway, she died in early 1610s I quess, and her husband remarried to her half-sister Fahri Sultan in September 1613. Anyway, I suggest that Mihrimah was the eldest, as I proved in citations that Mehmed had a two years older sister than him. Also, I (most strongly) suggest that Hümaşah was Safiye’s daughter, even the youngest, as her husband Hasan Pasha was placed in Divan of Ahmed I, and he referred to her as halem. 2) I didn’t get your comment about suggested (officially unknown) sons-in-law of Murad III, such as Boyali Mehmed Pasha, Siyavush Pasha (failed) and Serdar Ferhad Pasha. I mean, all that marriage negotiations in early 1590s prove that Safiye had more than two daughters. 3) I would suggest that Murad III’s daughters Saime and Fahri were his longest-living daughters, who died in late reign of Mehmed IV (Hümaşah, Beyhan and Hatice died in early reign of Mehmed IV). Anyway, I need to stress out that Fahri’s full name was Fahrihan (source: https://www.isam.org.tr/uploads/6595588ee2276.pdf - page 494 ; also there is Saime too – page 138) 4) I have suspitions that Murad III had one more daughter named Asüde Sultan, but I won’t claim it until I am sure it was his daughter.

I’m sorry if my answers are lacking but it’s just a lot of information to process fast and sometimes I get lost in the labyrinth of Ottoman princesses.

I never said Safiye couldn’t have been their mother. I said that since both Mihrimah and Hümaşah were important people in Murad III’s life, if he ever wanted to honour them he would have done it with his eldest daughters, hence Safiye’s.

I do not agree with you, Ahmed Pasha (Mirahur in 1604) was named governor of Rumelia two times; firstly in 1614 and secondly in 1614. And he wasn’t Aga of the jannisaries. The Pasha you’ve mentioned is someone else

Oh sorry, I copied my notes into the ask. I couldn’t understand what you were talking about until i saw my note in brackets lol. I thought it was him because Öztuna says that Mirahur Ahmed Pasha was, among other things, Janissaries commander and then governor of Rumelia:

=Dâmâd Mîrâhûr Ahmed Paşa (ölm.Ist.1618), izd.21.2.1613, izd.müd.5 yıl. Enderun, çukadâr 1612, hâsodabaşı, mîrâhûr 1613, yeniçeri ağacı 10.1613, vezâret'le Rumeli beyl.2.1614, Şâm 1617-8, mâzûl

I think I’m starting to see why you say that Mihrimah was Safiye’s eldest daughter. It took me a long time (bc i’m stupid) but I’m starting to see the light lol. If Matteo Zane is correct, and this princess was 26 years old in 1592 then there was definitely another daughter of Safiye who, for some reason, was unmarried at the time. If Mihrimah is Murad III’s eldest child then he definitely wanted to honour his beloved aunt (whom he honoured again when she died, burying her next to Süleyman).

I do agree that Hümaşah seems to be the youngest daughter of Safiye.

So, basically, Safiye’s children could be:

A princess (Mihrimah) born in 1564 circa

Mehmed III, born in May 1566

Süleyman, born in 1568-69 (the Venetians say he was two years younger than Mehmed) (he must have died before 1576, when another Süleyman was born)

Ayşe, born in 1569-70

Mahmud, born in July 1572

Fatma, born in 1574

Süleyman, born in December 1576 (and died in 1577)

Selim, born in December 1578

Hümaşah, born in 1580 (?) (though Sakaoğlu says she was born in Manisa)

Öztuna says that a Şehzade Mustafa was born in “1578?” and a Şehzade Osman was born in “1573” in Manisa. Osman was the eldest after Mehmed and died in 1587. Mustafa was executed by Mehmed III in 1595 and was the prince Canfeda had tried to save before being dismissed. Unfortunately Pedani didn’t source this claim, I would have loved to know more about this. These two princes though do not figure in “A COMPARISON OF SEYYID LOKMAN’S RECORDS OF THE BIRTH, DEATH AND WEDDING DATES OF MEMBERS OF OTTOMAN DYNASTY (1566-1595) WITH THE RECORDS IN OTTOMAN CHRONICLES”, so I don’t know. On the other hand, Karaçelebizâde says that the eldest prince executed by Mehmed III was born in 1585… which would make more sense.

Considering that Safiye was sent away to the Old Palace in 1583 and that the Venetian ambassador already reported that she could not have any more children (”seeing that she got ugly and could no longer have children”, dispatch dated 18 September 1583), I’d say that Hümaşah was the latest child she had (or maybe she had a miscarriage/difficult birth afterwards which sealed her condition). Selaniki, on the other hand, says that a 2yo princess died on 29 July 1585… maybe she was Safiye’s last child?

I didn’t get your comment about suggested (officially unknown) sons-in-law of Murad III, such as Boyali Mehmed Pasha, Siyavush Pasha (failed) and Serdar Ferhad Pasha. I mean, all that marriage negotiations in early 1590s prove that Safiye had more than two daughters.

Sorry about that!! So, I didn’t say anything because I thought that what you said made perfectly sense; I had nothing to add. I googled Ferhad Pasha and Wikipedia said that he tried to escape execution by appealing to Safiye. Unfortunately there is no source but it would make sense if he was her son-in-law. Where did you find that Nişancı Mehmed Pasha was governor of Rumelia in 1591? I swear I can’t find it anywhere.

I would suggest that Murad III’s daughters Saime and Fahri were his longest-living daughters, who died in late reign of Mehmed IV (Hümaşah, Beyhan and Hatice died in early reign of Mehmed IV). Anyway, I need to stress out that Fahri’s full name was Fahrihan

Saime stops being mentioned by Ragusian diplomats after 9 August 1670, while Farhi or Fahrihan (which I really like) is mentioned until 9 May 1679 as “Pahari” (unless it’s someone else but that’s the last time someone with a similar name was mentioned).

I’m going to read about Asüde Sultan soon, I’ve seen your message in my inbox :D

[ottomanladies]

I wish to give an opinion of daughters of Ibrahim. There is a great abyys in lack of prooves to demarcate daughters of Ibrahim, Atike and Gevherhan. At times, I have an opinion that Atike existed, and at another times that she didn’t exist. For now, I favour the other theory, but i will talk one day about that topic more detailed.

Archiv für Kulturgeschichte Band 77 on page 65, that at the very end of reign of Sultan Ibrahim, Valide Sultan received 125 okka per month, daughters of Murad III named Hümaşah and Hatice received 7 okka per month, daughter of Murad III Fahri(han) received 10 okka per month, Kaya Sultan 16 okka per month, daughters of Ibrahim Gevherhan and Beyhan 30 okka per month and daughter of Ibrahim Fatma 50 okka per month.

Why would Gevherhan and Beyhan receive less stipend than Fatma, as Fatma was adopted and raised by Turhan? Btw, Fatma survived her husband, read Sakaoglu (actually, Ulucay proved it first). Also, in Acta et Diplomata Ragusina, Fatma is mentioned in 1658 document as widow of Fazli Pasha, nothing else is said unfortunately…

Anyway, I would claim that Ayşe Sultan binti Ibrahim really existed. See this quote from work The rise of the Köprülü family (p. 129):

For instance, when Prince Mustafa, the first son of Mehmed IV, was born in Edirne Palace in 1664, Ayşe Sultan, Gevherhan Sultan and Beyhan Sultan, sisters of Mehmed IV, were called to Edirne Palace from Topkapı to join in the celebration for the new prince. This summons shows that some members of the sultan’s family still resided in Topkapı Palace after 1663.

I consider her being the own sister of Mehmed IV. Kütükoğlu was only one right, he was married to Ibrahim’s Ayşe. Ahmed’s Ayşe really died in 1656, in document Vakfiler su defteri there is one document mentioning Ayşe Sultan died before 1660 (if I recall). Her last husband was Ibsir Mustafa Pasha. Sadly, Ibrahim’s Ayşe was wrongly confused also as Ibsir’s wife. Her one and only marriage was with Suleiman Pasha Malatuk (Ermeni). Alderson confused her with Murad IV’s daughter.

In work Atik şikâyet defteri (7 numaralı H.1081-1083/ M.1671-1672) transkripsiyon, Mehmed IV wrote several letters in 1671/72 to his sisters Ayşe and Gevherhan, and their husbands. He doesn’t refer them as hemşirem, but it’s them.

Anyway, in work OSMANLI DEVLETİ’NİN 1660-1661 (HİCRİ 1070-1071) TARİHLİ SEFER BÜTÇESİ  (pp. 23-24), there were provided annual payments of some Ottoman princesses in 1661. This payment list does not refer to all of the Sultanas who were knowly alive in 1661, as Ahmed’s daughter Fatma Sultan for example. Only some of them.:

Hâshâ-i hazret-i Valide Sultan 12.000.000

Hâshâ-i paşmaklık-ı Ayşe Sultan 2.595.333

 Hâshâ-i paşmaklık-ı Fatıma Sultan 2.005.000

 Hâshâ-i paşmaklık-ı Rukiyye Sultan 1.235.000

Hâshâ-i paşmaklık-ı Safiye Sultan 1.005.000

Hâshâ-i paşmaklık-ı Beyhan Sultan 1.560.000 24

Hâshâ-i paşmaklık-ı Gevherhan Sultan 1.520.000

Hâshâ-i Ayşe sultan haseki-i merhum Gazi Sultan Murad Han aleyhi’r-rahmeti ve’l-gufran 100.000

Hâshâ-i paşmaklık-ı Ümmi Sultan 295.000

Hâshâ-i paşmaklık-ı Sâime Sultan 285.000

Hâshâ-i temlik-i merhum Kaya Sultan 1.250.000

See how Mehmed’s cousins (Murad IV’s daughters) and sisters (especially) received high payments, in difference to his aunt Ümmi Sultan and his great-great-aunt Saime Sultan. But, you would notice his sisters Ayşe and Fatma received the highest salaries; Ayşe the very highest as own sister, Fatma little lesser as adopted sister.

Sorry for the long wait, I have been incredibly busy these past few months.

About Ayşe binti Ibrahim, I would refer to this post, in which @rhaenahanzades found that the one married to Ermeni/Malatyalı Süleyman Pasha was Ayşe binti Ahmed I. I’ll paste the citation again, here:

“Soliman passa, Visir della Porta. Ritrouai anche alla Corte per Visir della Porta il Sr Soliman passa, stato un tempo Visir Supremo, dal quale fui all'udienza e lo presentai secondo le comissioni, il quale nell'honorarmi e trattarmi bene non uolse mostrarsi meno cortese degl'altri, offerendosi con molta humanità per ogni occorenza de publici seruitii. Questo Sr è assai noto all'EE. VV. per rellationi di diuersi loro ambassadori, onde a me non occorre tediarle in detto proposito. Dirò solo questo, che non le uol male e che sia personaggio da potterle fauorire, essendo ben uoluto da S. Mtà, col quale è ancor congiunto col uincolo di parentella, mentre la sua zia Aisce sultana tiene per moglie.” (“Dubrovačka akta i povelje” vol. 3, pages 661 and 662)

I believe Ayşe binti Ibrahim died pretty young and therefore never entered the Ragusian ambassadors’ lists of gifts.

As for Fatma binti Ibrahim, I must have missed when it was decided that she had been adopted by Turhan because I have never heard of this.

About the list of payments you’ve found, I’m not sure those princesses are identified correctly:

I have identified them based on seniority and the amount of money, which seems to me to be what their lands yield. I don’t think these are stipends.

Anyway, if we put the princesses in order of amount of money, I think it’d be easier to understand who is who:

Ayşe and Fatma stand at the top of the hierarchy because a) they’re older and b) they must have amassed a great amount of land during their lives. After them we have the sisters of the reigning sultan (Mehmed IV), so Beyhan and Gevherhan (possibly in order of birth??); then we have Murad IV’s daughters (Kaya is mentioned as deceased because she was at the time), and lastly we have two minor princesses: Saime, a daughter of Murad III and a non-haseki concubine, and Ümmi, either a daughter of Ahmed I or of Murad III as well. I say this because I think their small amount of land means they were not daughters of Haseki Sultans: if Ümmi is Ayşe and Fatma’s sister that’s the only reason she would possess less land than them.

[ottomanladies]

Excuse me, but I also think that Murad and Safiye did not have a daughter named Mihrimah.

The problem of your work as a historian is that you only pay attention to the writings of the ambassadors and ignore the documents of the harem.

In Mustafa Altun's book, (Yüzyıl Dönümünde Bir Valide Sultan: Safiye Sultan'ın Hayatı ve Eserleri) the rights of women in the sultan's court are specified in the final pages of the book. It is mentioned how much Sultan's sisters and cousins ​​received. Even the names of the Sultan's four children, Mehmed, Mahmud, Ayşe and Fatma, are mentioned, but there is no name of another child.

It is more interesting that this information covers up to 1582. If Safiye had another child, most likely they would have died in infancy. If she was an older girl, her name would definitely be mentioned in the list of harem women. If Safiye had another daughter, Ahmad would have named her on one of his daughters, as he did with the others.

The previously mentioned ambassadors each say the opposite. One says that the Sultan has one daughter, while the other says that the Sultan has two daughters. It is clear that not all ambassadors could have correct information about the Sultan's family.

I think the problem of my work as a historian is that you guys ask about stuff that actual historians find in a lifetime while I have to answer in a couple of weeks. Also, I don’t have harem registers at hand and I cannot fly to Istanbul to look at them. In short, I’m doing my best with the sources I have on my pc.

I have my problems with those harem registers because while I appreciate them for showing us that Bayezid’s daughter Hatice went back to the harem at some point in her life (probably after a marriage), I don’t see Mihrimah (Süleyman and Hürrem’s daughter), who was alive in 1576:

In the top part there’s Murad III’s immediate family, so Safiye and his sons (Ayse and Fatma weren’t born yet). In the middle part we have expenses for clothes, but in the bottom part we have those who ate at the imperial kitchen and it seems strange to me that Mihrimah is not included. Also, where is Fatma binti Selim II? She was alive at the time.

Ironically, Fatma reappears after her supposed death (1580) in harem registers dated 1581-82. Either this is a mistake by the harem clerk or she didn't die in 1580 after all.

On the other hand Şah has disappeared because she truly died in 1580, it seems.

It it interesting that a historian like Uluçay missed these harem registers where Fatma is considered alive in 1581-82.

On the other hand, maybe these harem registers are not complete. Or they’re wrong.

In any case, a Mihrimah Sultan binti Murad III definitely existed, and maybe Mehmed Sureyya was wrong when he said that she was the eldest when Murad died. Or maybe we were wrong and she was the eldest when she died, therefore moving her date of birth forward.

EDIT: Fatma Sultan binti Selim II died on 24 June 1590, according to Seyyid Lokmân, Mustafa Selaniki, and İsmail Hâmi Danişmend (Lokmân and Selaniki were contemporaries). Mehmed Süreyya's Şaban 988 instead of Şaban 998 seems just an oversight. Thanks to @rhaenahanzades and @kehribar-sultan for pointing it out.

[ottomanladies]

reallifesultanas Thank you very much for your answer! Yes I meant Dumas not Alderson sorry for that! Is there a reason for the illogical amount of salaries? I mean the earlier salary lists of registers clearly help us to indentify the sultanas. The 1555-1556 registers are 100% logical; the 1603-1604 registers are still logical: Safiye, Handan, aunts of Ahmed, great-aunt of Ahmed, great-great aunt's daughter (Ayse Hümasah), cousin of Mehmed III, far relatives. But then there is this one.. highest salary for the full sisters of the sultan is logical, but then what does the daughters of Murad III doing there? Fahri/Kamer and Hümaşah/Rukiye* are surely Murads and so Ümmügülsüm could be also Murad's... For the lesser salaries Beyhan, Safiye, Hatice I could imagine they were Mehmed III's, maybe Beyhan's Mustafa was Mirahur Mustafa? But these stipends are just not logical... (*Murad III's daughte Rukiye was said to be married to Nakkas Hasan not Huma). And for Ümmügülsüm there is that one report from 1688 (Katherine Trumbull) when it is said she developed a relationship with Sultana Ümmühan, the aunt of the deposed Sultan Mehmed IV, through visits to the harem. This Ümmühan could be Halil Pasha's wife and so Murad III's/Mehmed III's daugher, or is it more likely not an aunt but sister/cousin? Or she truly can be Ahmed I's daughter? There is this 85 numaralı Mühimme defteri that provide some informations suggesting suggesting Ümmügülsüm was sister of Murad IV. Sadly I dont have the book so I cannot check how true is this claim...

I hope you don't mind if we continue here on ottomanladies.

I know the harem register doesn’t seem to make sense from the point of view of hierarchy but we must remember that the hierarchy could be broken on the basis of favouritism. Maybe those aunts were more favoured than the others.

In this table we can see Gevherhan Sultan, a great-aunt of Ahmed I’s, the reigning sultan. Dumas mistakenly identifies her as a daughter of Murad III’s and a concubine of non-haseki rank, but the reality is she’s first because she’s the most senior princess alive. If you look closely at the second category — “Frais de bouche” — she receives the same amount as Ayse and Fatma, Safiye’s daughters. Gevherhan was quite favoured by Ahmed I because she had trained Handan in her household. Also, her late husband Cerrah Mehmed Pasha had performed Ahmed I’s circumcision. Borekçi says that she was the only recipient — apart from Handan and Safiye — of sable fur:

“A register preserved in the Topkapı Palace Archives gives further details of the gifts Gevherhan Sultan received from her great grand-cousin. At the beginning of this register, there are records of the furs and robes of honor sent by the new sultan to his larger family right after his enthronement on December 27, 1603. Here, Gevherhan Sultan is listed as a recipient of a sable robe (semmûr kaplu nimtâne) and recorded as the third female member of the dynasty after the retiring queen mother, Safiye Sultan, and the new queen mother, Handan Sultan, and before all other living sisters and daughters of Murad III and Mehmed III -- a clear indication of her privileged position. Later, on February 6, 1604, she again appears in the register, this time as the only female family member apart from Handan Sultan to receive a fur-trimmed silk robe.”

(I believe the 6 şehzâdegân are unmarried princesses that Ahmed still had to matchmake but this is another story)

I know it’s Rukiye that Öztuna says has married Nakkaş Hasan Pasha but he could be wrong tbh, it wouldn’t be the first time. Also, neither Sakaoğlu or Uluçay confirm this; they give no information about Rukiye except for the identity of her mother. Unfortunately Öztuna never gives his sources so we don’t know where he found that Rukiye was married to Nakkaş Hasan Pasha. I would trust the harem register and contemporary sources (the ragusian diplomat, in this case) more tbh… both say that Nakkaş Hasan Pasha was married to a princess called Hümaşah…

About Beyhan… the problem is the wife of Mirahur Mustafa Pasha went on to marry Cigalazade Sinan Pasha’s son Mahmud Bey in 1612, and died before 1620, the date of Mahmud Bey’s second wedding, which means she shouldn’t have been alive in 1638-39. The Ragusian letter date 1648, though, lists a Beyhan Sultan widow of “Nideli Mustafa Pasha”— unfortunately, I can’t say who this man is or what “nideli” means.

I do agree with you, though. I think that Beyhan, Safiye, and Hatice are daughters of Mehmed III. We know that seven princesses were married in the summer of 1613, after all. A letter dated July 1613 by a Ragusian diplomat, furthermore, says that “at the present there are fifteen sultanas”.

About Katherine Trumbull, I guess you mean this:

“While in Istanbul, Katherine had developed a relationship with Sultana Ümmühan, Mehmed IV’s aunt and sister to Ibrahim II. On 14 July 1688, Katherine met with Ümmühan for the first time, and the two women continued to meet in the imperial harem throughout Trumbull’s residence in Istanbul. During these visits, Katherine must have been accompanied by someone with knowledge of spoken Turkish, or else it is unclear how she would have been able to communicate with the women she met in the harem. At any rate, when she returned to the embassy, she brought to Trumbull news of things taking place in the Ottoman court.” — Ghobrial, John-Paul A, 'Overcoming Distance in Everyday Communication', The Whispers of Cities: Information Flows in Istanbul, London, and Paris in the Age of William Trumbull (Oxford, 2013; online edn, Oxford Academic, 23 Jan. 2014)

Unfortunately, William Trumbull’s diaries were not published, they’re in the British Library. I always like to cross-check my sources and the fact that I can’t read the original kind of annoys me. Ümmühan is quite an unusual name for an Ottoman princess: Ümmi means mother and Han sovereign, it kind of sounds like “valide sultan”, which is why I thought it was a title for a moment but I couldn’t find anything to confirm this. It is kind of interesting, though, that Öztuna says that Ibrahim’s eldest daughter was called Ümmügülsüm, who could have been named after another Ümmügülsüm (the one that in 1622 was unmarried? Who knows)

The Mühimme defteri is not a book but a collection of copies of all the imperial decrees or decisions taken in the imperial council. They’re numbered and the number 85 refers to the years 1630-31. You can find the PDF for free on the website of the Turkish National Archives but, well, it’s in Ottoman Turkish.

(This is one of them)

So I can’t really read it even though I have it.

[ottomanladies]

I need to comment on the latest discussions.

I gave my best to discover identities of daughters of Murad III. I saw recent discussions with another sender, where I could agree that beylerbeyi of Greece from 1590 was Hizir Pasha. I thought that it was Boyali Mehmed Pasha because he was referred as Damad in Index, and I really thought that he was the brother-in-law of sister of Shehzade Mehmed mentioned from 1591...

Anyway, my final word is that it was Hizir Pasha, thanks to the sender rhaenahanzades, I appreciate that discovery. But, I would firmly and undoubtedly stay beside my first claims, that those two daughters of Murad III engaged in August 1590 were both daughters of Safiye. Very interesting, it seems that Fatma was said to be beautiful by ambassador. I provided you from three good sources that  Siyavuş Pasha was promised to the Murad III’s (and Safiye’s) daughter. I am glad that you agree with me that Matheo Zane couldn’t missed age of Sultana so much, she wasn’t 26 y.o. in 1592 as he reported but 27-28 y.o., but it doesn’t matter, the point is the same; he was engaged to the eldest one. As Ayşe Sultan was at the time Ibrahim’s wife, and Fatma Sultan was negotiated between Halil Pasha and Hizir Pasha, it must be another daughter. As Sureyya Bey noted that Mihrimah Sultan was the eldest daughter of Murad III when he died, it was surely her. Beside, we know she wasn’t healthy Sultana and that had health issues, her life must have passed confined to Topkapi Palace, I believe. Don’t forget Hümaşah Sultan, who was also Safiye’s daughter, but it seems that she was born between 1580 and 1582, and, as she reached her marriageable age during reign of her brother Mehmed III, we don’t know nothing about her from early 1590s, as she was a child at the time. Her marriage to Hasan Pasha, according to ambassador from early 1610s, appeared during reign of Mehmed III. Anyway, as I said hundred times by now, all four of them were Safiyes. It is my proudest discovery in this sphere, and I am glad you recognized it.

I saw your comment on my analysis of daughters of Mehmed III, and I would agree with much things, but not all of them.

I agree that we don’t know when exactly daughter of Mehmed III, Ayşe Sultan, married Destari Mustafa Pasha. As he died in 1610, it must have been between 1601-1604. I mean, yeah, she could have been the eldest of Mehmed. But we don’t have enough evidence for now to claim it. You didn’t answer me on my questions, who was Ayşe Sultan married to Hüsrev Pasha, I send you some sources. As you saw, Oztuna (who is most occasionally wrong and incorrect) gave strong opinion that it was Mehmed III’s daughter. Maybe he didn’t mishit that time.

I would still suggest that Şah Sultan was most surely wife of (Mirahur) Mustafa Pasha who died in 1610. 82 n. defteri proves it. Check Sicill-I Osmani, Mustafa Pasha was Mirahur until he married sister of Ahmed I and became vizier, so it was him, as he was referred in decision as late vizier. As we all know it’s a fact that Mustafa Pasha’s wife was remarried to Mahmud Bey. So, his wife was Şah Sultan, not Hatice Sultan as Oztuna wrongly suggested.  I didn’t realised why you didn’t agree she was full-sister of Ahmed I, when two sources I provided you mentioned her as that. As Mahmud Bey remarried in 1620, and Şah Sultan was still alive in 1617, I believe she died somewhere in 1618.

Mehmed III did have daughter Hatice, and we only know that she had a husband Mustafa Agha who died before 1617. I sometimes wonder if she was the eldest one…. Anyway, I’m between Ayşe and Hatice for options on eldest daughter of Mehmed III. We also know that she has a grave in Sehzade Complex, but someone mixed her husband Mustafa Agha, as Mirahur Mustafa Pasha, who was Şah Sultan’s husband.

Now, maybe I didn’t provide the best document to prove that Suleiman Bey was Kara Davud Pasha’s son, because I provided document from 1687 where are mentioned his daughters Ayşe, Safiye and Afife. Well, here’s the document from 1662:

III. Murad’ın kızı Fahrî Sultan’ın kocası Dilâver Paşa’dan intikal eden malları satan vekili Süleyman Bey’den herhangi bir alacağı kalmadığı Husûs-ı âti’l-beyânı mahallinde tahrîr için kıbel-i şer‘den bi’t-taleb irsâl olunan mevlânâ Sâlih Efendi b. Mehmed, ol dahi zeyl-i kitâbda muharrerü’l-esâmî olan müslimîn ile medîne-i hazret-i Ebâ Eyyûb el-Ensârî -dâme fî rıdvâni’l-Bârî- de vâki‘ Debbâğlar Deresi demekle ma‘rûf mahalde sâkine fahrü’l-muhadderât zevi’l-muvakkarât tâcü’l-mestûrât aliyyetü’z-zât safiyyetü’s-sıfât Fahrî Sultan bt. el-merhûm el-mebrûr ed-darrâc ilâ medârici rahmeti Rabbihi’l-gafûr Sultan Murad Hân -aleyhi’r-rahmeti ve’l-gufrân- hazretlerinin sa‘âdet-hânelerine varılıp akd-i meclis-i şer‘-i şerîf olundukda, sultân-ı müşârün-ileyhâ meclis-i ma‘kūd-ı mezkûrda, işbu kitâb-ı sıhhat-nisâbın sâhibi kıdvetü’l-emâcid ve’l-ekârim câmi‘ü’l-mehâmid ve’l-mekârim Sultanzâde Süleyman Bey b. el-merhûm Davud Paşa mahzarında tav‘an ikrâr ve takrîr-i kelâm edip bundan akdem fevt olan zevcim merhûm Dilâver Paşa zimmetinde mütekarrir olan mehr-i müeccelim mukābelesinde mecmû‘-ı muhallefâtı hatt-ı şerîf-i sa‘âdet-makrûn ile bana ihsân buyurulmağın ben dahi muhallefât-ı müteveffâ-yı mezbûru izn-i hâkim-i askerî ile sûk-ı sultânîde semen-i misli ile bey‘ ve kabz-ı semen ve bana îsâle mûmâ-ileyh Süleyman Bey’i tarafımdan vekîl ve nâib-i menâb nasb ve ta‘yîn eylediğimde ol dahi vekâlet-i mezbûreyi kabûl ve târih-i mezbûrda mahrûse-i Galata’da kassâm-ı askerî olan Hasan Efendi ma‘rifetiyle muhallefât-ı müteveffâ-yı mezbûru sûk-ı sultânîde bi’l-vekâle bey‘ ve kabz-ı semen eyledikden sonra defter-i kassâm mûcebince makbûzu olan meblağı tamamen bana def‘ ve teslîm, ben dahi kabz ve tesellüm etmişidim el-hâletü hâzihî husûs-ı mezbûra ve mütâlebât ve eymân ve muhâsamâtdan mûmâ-ileyh Süleyman Bey’in zimmetini ibrâ-i âmm-ı kātı‘ü’n-nizâ‘ ile ibrâ ve iskāt eyledim min ba‘d mûmâ-ileyh Süleyman Bey ile merhûm Dilâver Paşa muhallefâtına ve sâir husûsa müte‘allik da‘vâ ve nizâ‘ım yokdur, zuhûr dahi ederse lede’l-hükkâmi’l-kirâm kebîrihimi’llâhi’l-meliki’l-Allâm mesmû‘a ve makbûle olmasın deyicek gıbbe’t-tasdîki’ş-şer‘iyyi’l-vicâhiyyi’l-mu‘teber mâ hüve’l-vâki‘ kayd şüd. Fi’l-yevmi’s-sâbi‘ min şehri Ramazâni’l-mübârek li sene isneteyn ve seb‘în ve elf.

I have no doubt he was Kara Davud Pasha’s son, but names of his daughters gave me reason to believe that Safiye was maybe name of his mother mentioned in harem register of 1638. But, it could still be daughter of Murad III, because 4 husbands out of 7 were named Mehmed in 1613 wedding og Murad III’s daughters. Still, there are no enough evidence to claim whose daughter she was, but one of those two padishahs, yes...

Beside, I see there are some questions about identity of Mihriban Sultan. Actually, she was daughter of Şehzade Bayezid, but for some reason, she was referred as Mihriban, not Mihrimah. She was still alive in 1610s. Those endowments or vakfiyes or whatever were hers…

Mihriban Sultan bt. [Şehzade] Bayezid Han’ın ev vakfı Mâ-hüve’l-muharrerü fîhî mine’l-vakfi ve şerâitihi ve’l-habsi ve zavâbitihi sahha ledeyye ve sebbete beyne yedeyye hakemtü bi-sıhhatihî ve lüzûmihî fî-husûsihî ve umûmihî âlimen bi-hilâfi’l-cârî beyne’l-eimmeti’l-eslâf ve ene’l-abdü’l-fakīr Mehmed Es‘ad b. Mehmed el-Kâssâm-ı askerî bi-medîneti Kostantıniyyetüil-mahmiye -ufiye anhümâ ve gufire lehâ ve ba‘d işbu kitâbın tahrîrine bâ‘is budur ki; sâhibetü’l-hayrât fahrü’l-muhadderât Mihriban Sultan bt. Sultan Bayezid Hân tarafından vakf-ı âti’z-zikri ikrâra vekîl olup Maksud Bey b. Abdullah ve Mirzâ Bey b. Mucur nâm kimesneler şehâdetleriyle şer‘an vekâleti sâbite olan fahrü’l-akrân Mehmed Çelebi b. Abdürreyyân meclis-i şer‘-i kavîmde müvekkile-i müşârun-ileyh[â] hazretler[i] vakf-ı âti’l-beyâna li-ecli’t-tescîl mütevellî nasb ve ta‘yîn ettiği Mahmud Reis b. İhtiyâr nâm kimesne muvâcehesinde bi’l-vekâle ikrâr ve takrîr-i kelâm edip müvekkilem müşârun-ileyhâ Mihriban Sultan hazretleri mahmiye-i Galata hâricinde el-Hâc Memi mahallesinde vâki‘ bir tarafı Pazarbaşı Ahmed mülkü ve bir tarafı Şâmî Hatun mülkü ve bir tarafı Çâşnigîrzâde Mehmed Çelebi mülkü ve bir tarafı yine müvekkilem müşârun-ileyhâ mülkü ile mahdûd bir bâb fevkānî beyti ve muhavvata ve kenîfi muhtevî olan mülk menzilini cemî‘-i tevâbi‘i ile ve dahi hudûd-ı mezkûre ile mahdûd tûlen ve arzen on beş zirâ‘ arz-ı hâliyeyi hasbeten lillâhi’l-azîm vakf ve habs edip şöyle şart eyledi ki menzil-i mezbûrda müşârun-ileyhâ hazretlerinin utekāsından Rahime bt. Abdullah sâkine olup ol vefât ettikden sonra mezbûre Rahime’nin evlâdı ve evlâd-ı evlâdı sâkin olalar ve ba‘de’l-inkırâz mütevellî-i mezbûr Mahmud Reis sâkin ola ve ondan sonra mütevellî-i merkūmun evlâdı ve evlâd-ı evlâdı sâkin olalar neslen ba‘de neslin inkırâz ve ba‘de’l-inkırâz menzil-i mezbûr ecr-i misli ile îcâr olunup hâsıl olan ücreti her sene Medîne-i Münevvere fukarâsına irsâl oluna ve ta‘mîr ve termîmin menzil-i mezbûrda sâkin olan ede deyip vekîl-i merkūm menzil-i mezbûru mütevellî-i mersûma teslîm edip ol dahi kabz ve tesellüm eyledikden sonra ba‘de’l-muhâkeme hâkim-i muvakkı‘-ı hâze’l-kitâb hazretleri menzil-i mezbûru sıhhat ve lüzûmuna hükm-i sahîh ile hükmedip min-ba‘d nakz ve nakzına mecâl mümteni‘ü’l-ihtimâl ve tağyîr ve tebdîli muhâl oldu. “Fe men-beddelehû ba‘de mâ-semi‘ahu [fe inne]mâ ismühû ale’llezîne yübeddilûnehû innellâhe [semî‘un alîm]”

Finally, I want to remind you that some of my analyzes and other useful discoveries are pending with you (some even for a long time), and I hope you will answer them as soon as possible. Greetings!

Before answering, I would like to tell everybody that, unfortunately, I hurt my right shoulder and wrist, so I cannot spend too much time at my computer answering your questions. I hope you understand why I've been slow lately.

I personally appreciate all your work considering it’s done with only sources that are available online. It’s good that you stand by your claims, I am just afraid you can’t force everyone else to agree with you lol

Moving on to Mehmed III’s daughters:

Ayşe Sultan binti Mehmed III

My bad, it seems I have missed that part of your previous ask.

Ayşe Sultan binti Mehmed III seems to have been the wife of Hüsrev Pasha. From the way that essay words it, it seems that Ayşe survived him: “It was stated that the income would first be used for the repair of the foundation works and the remaining would be distributed among Hüsrev Pasha’s children, and that his wife Ayşe, his brother Ibrahim Pasha bin Hizir Pasha after her death, and their children and grand-children after their deaths would be the trustees. Thus, it is understood that Hüsrev Pasha’s wife was Ayşe Sultan, that he also had a brother named Ibrahim Pasha, and that their father was Hızır Pasha.”

Öztuna says that they married in 1613. Since Destari Mustafa Pasha died in 1610, it is definitely possible. Hüsrev Pasha was executed in 1632, if Ayşe survived him she must have died between 1632 and 1639 (or she went back to the harem, and that’s why she’s not mentioned in Dumas’ list of stipends, which is about princesses who lived outside the Palace).

Şah Sultan binti Mehmed III

I honestly do not remember not agreeing that Şah was Ahmed I’s full-sister, I just pointed out that Pietro della Valle wasn’t sure about it: “… tra le sorelle del Gran Signore e forse la piu amata, e, se ben mi ricordo, credo che sia sorella a lui di madre e di madre, che in queste parti rade volte  avviene ai principi del sangue reale.”

“se ben mi ricordo” means “if I remember correctly”, so the sentence is “… she’s probably the most beloved among the Grand Signore’s sisters and, if I remember correctly, I think she’s his sister from his father’s and his mother’s side, something that rarely happens to princes of royal blood.”

That’s it. I also said that it’s interesting that he mentioned that because most of the time foreigners don’t, they don’t distinguish between full-siblings and half-siblings.

I looked up Mustafa Pasha in Sicill-i Osmani, as you recommended:

He grew up in Enderun and became a mirahur-i evvel (chief of the sultan’s stables). In 1013 (October 1604) he became beylerbeyi and in the same week he became vizier and damad. Then he became kubbe vizier and then he was sent to the guardianship of Bursa. In 1016 (1607/08) he was brought from there and became kaymakam (deputy grand vizier), and in 1018 (1609/10) he was dismissed and became again kubbe vizier. He died in 1019 (1610). He is buried with his wife the sultan in his mausoleum at the gate of the Sehzade Mosque.

It checks out: he was first mirahur and then made vizier when he became damad.

Hatice Sultan binti Mehmed III

I’m afraid there’s nothing to add about her or her husband. /If/ we consider that decision to be close to his death (it’s about lands) because maybe someone else stole her inheritance, then he may have died in (late?) 1617, as that decision is from Zi’l-hicce 1026, which is December 1617.

I personally don’t believe she was the eldest, also because she married “just” an agha of the Janissaries.

Anyway, we don’t know what happened to her after 1617.

The wife of Kara Davud Pasha

Now, that document is good! He is finally called “Sultanzâde Süleyman Bey b. el-merhûm Davud Paşa” so he can only be Davud and the princess’ son. Also, it’s interesting that he acted as his aunt’s representative when she had to sell some lands.

Anyways, it’s possible that Mehmed III could have named one of his daughters after his mother but we can’t say it with certainty as of now. Moreover, this princess could have gone back to the harem after Davud Pasha’s execution and never married again. If she was, we’d need stipends for Enderun and not Birun to check who was living in the Palace at the time.

Mihriban Sultan

Actually, whoever translitered the document wasn’t sure of the identity of her father, as it’s titled: Mihriban Sultan bt. [Şehzade]? Bayezid Han’ın ev vakfı. The way her father is mentioned “Mihriban Sultan bt. Sultan Bayezid Hân”, without all the adjectives for a sovereign makes me think it was certainly Şehzade Bayezid and not, for example, Bayezid II. (I also truly doubt that a daughter of Bayezid II was alive in the 1610s).

I think these names sometimes varied to a certain point, like Fahri-Fahriye-Fahrihan. In imperial documents, Ayşe Sultan binti Ahmed I is repeatedly called Ayişe. Ümmügülsüm binti Ahmed I was also mentioned in various ways: Ümmügülsüm, Ümmi, Ümm-i Külsum, and finally, as Ümmühan by that English ambassador.

[ottomanladies]

Hello, I hope you are doing well, I love your content but I was confused by a subject you brought up

You mentioned in one of your posts that Nilüfer was most likely a consort of slave origin, and then you rely on the Mekce document to claim that Orhan had two other consorts called Melek and Efendi.

I would like to know what recent historians base their claim that Nilüfer was a slave on, apart from her first name? Which could very well have been changed following her conversion to Islam, I see absolutely nothing that proves that this is the case, quite the contrary, and by the way, who decreed that Nilüfer was a slave name? 😭

According to the majority of historians, Nilüfer was the daughter of the Tekfur/Ruler of Yarhisar.

It is said that Nilüfer arrived after 1324 because she is not mentioned in the Mekce document, and that this is sufficient evidence to say that she was not there before and that the stories about her are false, but absolutely not. This document is not a family document in any way, all the children of Orhan and Osman are not mentioned, and neither is Asporça Hatun, although it is absolutely certain that she became Orhan's wife well before 1324 since she gave birth to Ibrahim in 1316. And you basing your theory on Nilüfer being a slave because she arrived after 1324, while you say that she is the mother of Suleyman who was born around 1316? In addition to this, in this document, Efendi and Melek are not certified or mentioned as Orhan's wives in this document, unlike his sister Fatma who is clearly mentioned as Osman’s daughter, so where does this information come from? Efendi, Mal Bint ömer and Melek are all mentioned at the bottom of the document and are the three people whose identities are not identified (this was also confirmed by Leslie Pierce)

Also I don’t know what’s so important for everyone about that Mekçe document? In 1941, Halil Ismail Uzuncarsili published the 1324 Mekçe Property Charter from the documents found in Topkapi Saray, where indeed Efendi and Melek are mentioned (not described as Orhan’s wives they are just witnesses), everybody take in consideration that document but ignore the other charter made by Halil Ismail Uzancarsili published after 1963, this one actually prepared by Orhan Gazi himself in 1360 after the death of his eldest son Süleyman, where Nilüfer IS mentioned, Efendi and Melek aren’t.

Efendi was only Orhan's cousin and Melek was more likely his niece, them being mentioned in the Mekce doesn’t mean they were wives of Orhan?

Moreover, this theory can also be easily denied due to the fact that the title of "Hatun" was not used with their names (like Fatma *HATUN* Bint Osman for example), which was unlikely as the name of all other noble or even common women was followed by this title, let alone the wives of an Ottoman ruler.

All the claims about “Efendi” and “Melek” being Orhan’s wives are completely baseless and were only made by Feridun Emecen after 725 years.

The so-called Bayalun is also more likely Nilüfer, it is said that it is one of her names. There is this book of travels by Ibn Batuta who himself mentions that Nilufer Hatun was Beylun Hatun. In John Freely's book it is also mentioned exactly the same thing, Beylun Hatun was Nilufer Hatun

You also say that Theodora was Orhan's favorite wife, while her marriage with Orhan was for purely political reasons, Orhan probably didn't even welcome her and she was taken care of in the Ottoman lands by eunuchs like it is mentioned in the book" Eunuchs in the Byzantine history and society". Theodora was 16 when she married and Orhan 66? Unless Orhan has some strange sharpness, I doubt she was his favorite, especially when the great love story of Orhan and Nilüfer is so well described in the many history books read, presented and approved at the court of the Ottoman Sultans Bayezid II and Murad III :)

That grant land which apparently identifies Efendi as Orhan's wife, I wonder if anybody ever saw this document because I don’t think so? It is in Leslie.p's book okay, but this isn’t a proof?

Orhan had three confirmed wives in his life and these are most probably the only ones he had: Nilüfer, Asporça and Theodora.

And I wonder where is it stated that Orhan had a Serbian wife, because I checked Oztuna’s work on O.E and all he has talked about is politics and the era of yavuz and kanuni and until now I myself couldn’t find anything in which he talked about the wives of sultan or like the even slightest mention

Regarding Alderson and his claims (that I didn’t find btw) pointing out that Orhan had a Serbian wife, I wonder where he got that from, and I don't think his statements are really true, for example If we follow his logic almost all of Mehmed III's children were born from Handan and he also completely denied the fact that Murad III had a daughter named Hümaşah 💀 In addition to this, he also wrote that Orhan died in 1360 and that Murad executed his brother Suleyman’s son, I don’t even know where the Serbian wife thing comes from. All Alderson said about Nilüfer and Orhan was just that they got married in 1299

There are so many sources that claim that Orhan only had 3 wives, and that Nilüfer, the Byzantine Tekfur’s daughter was his favorite wife, I can share them with you but expect it to be long 😭, sorry if I seemed rude, it was not my intention, have a nice day! And again I love your content! ❤️

I'm sorry but I'm a little confused because I looked into my blog and I've never claimed any of this stuff.

A little disclaimer before I go on, though: I don't do historical research for every post I make because otherwise, I'd post once a year. Everything I have written on this blog has been taken from books, so it's not me claiming anything. It is true that in this post, related to Orhan's and Bayezid's consort, I did not include sources but the bookshelf page contains all the sources I usually use.

Now:

You mentioned in one of your posts that Nilüfer was most likely a consort of slave origin, and then you rely on the Mekce document to claim that Orhan had two other consorts called Melek and Efendi.

I have no idea what this Mekce document is, I have never used it nor seen it. That Nilüfer was "most likely" a concubine (words are important) is something that Peirce says in The Imperial Harem:

Nilüfer's name, Persian for "water lily", argues for a greater likelihood that she was a concubine, since it was typical of the mostly Persian names given to concubines in the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries, many of which were names of birds and flowers. Further evidence that Nilüfer might have entered Orhan’s household as a slave concubine is the fact that slaves were an abundant commodity in the Turkish principalities of western Anatolia by the time of her son Murad’s birth. Ibn Battuta reported that the ruler of the rival Turkish principality of Aydın had twenty Greek slaves standing at attention at the entrance to his palace; indeed, he gave the traveler a Greek slave woman as a gift. The household of Osman contained slaves used in combat and probably household slaves as well, although historical tradition represents the estate of the deceased ruler as modest and typically nomadic: a robe, flank armor, a saltcellar, a spoon holder, soft high houseboots, several stables of good horses, several flocks of sheep, a few wild mares, and several pairs of saddle pads.31 By the beginning of Orhan’s reign, slaves taken in conquest may have been a standard feature of soldier households in the Ottoman principality: Orhan purchased slaves from his followers in order to provide for the defense of the newly conquered fortress cities.

I have simply reported what Peirce said in The Imperial Harem.

And you basing your theory on Nilüfer being a slave because she arrived after 1324, while you say that she is the mother of Suleyman who was born around 1316?

Again, I don't understand why you're thinking *I* am the one who came up with the theory. I didn't. I've never studied Orhan's family as it is not a subject I'm particularly interested in.

This, again, is written in The Imperial Harem:

The principal witnesses of the 1324 endowment deed cited above were family members; the hierarchical order of the signatories suggests that two of the four female witnesses—Melek and Efendi—were wives of Orhan (the other two were Fatma Khatun, Orhan’s sister, and Mal Khatun). Efendi, identified as “Eftendize” in the record of a land grant Orhan made to her as his wife, may have been Orhan’s cousin, the daughter of Osman’s brother Gündüz. If so, this first-cousin marriage may have functioned to seal Gündüz’s loyalty to Osman. Melek appears in no histories or other documents that have come to light; if indeed she was married to Orhan, she may have been the mother of Sultan, who is known to us as one of Orhan’s sons only through his appearance as a signatory to the deed and who must have died before his father. Another of Orhan’s wives, and the mother of his son İbrahim and two daughters, Fatma and Seljuk, was Asporça. Nothing else is known about her except that Osman granted this daughter-in-law several villages, which she then deeded to her descendents in 1323, making her son her executor.

All the claims about Efendi, Melek, Bayalun... I know nothing about this. I simply reported what I've found in books written by other people. Just take it up to them.

You also say that Theodora was Orhan's favorite wife, while her marriage with Orhan was for purely political reasons, Orhan probably didn't even welcome her and she was taken care of in the Ottoman lands by eunuchs like it is mentioned in the book" Eunuchs in the Byzantine history and society". Theodora was 16 when she married and Orhan 66? Unless Orhan has some strange sharpness, I doubt she was his favorite, especially when the great love story of Orhan and Nilüfer is so well described in the many history books read, presented and approved at the court of the Ottoman Sultans Bayezid II and Murad III :)

I really have no idea where I said this because I looked for posts where I mentioned Theodora but I didn't find anything. This is what I said about her when I was asked to talk about Orhan's consorts:

And I wonder where is it stated that Orhan had a Serbian wife, because I checked Oztuna’s work on O.E and all he has talked about is politics and the era of yavuz and kanuni and until now I myself couldn’t find anything in which he talked about the wives of sultan or like the even slightest mention

I don't know what O.E is but I use Devletler ve Hanedanlar. This said, it's not Oztuna who said Orhan had a Serbian wife, but Alderson:

Stefan Uroš IV Dušan was King of Serbia, hence his daughter was Serbian.

Regarding Alderson and his claims (that I didn’t find btw) pointing out that Orhan had a Serbian wife, I wonder where he got that from, and I don't think his statements are really true, for example If we follow his logic almost all of Mehmed III's children were born from Handan and he also completely denied the fact that Murad III had a daughter named Hümaşah 💀 In addition to this, he also wrote that Orhan died in 1360 and that Murad executed his brother Suleyman’s son, I don’t even know where the Serbian wife thing comes from. All Alderson said about Nilüfer and Orhan was just that they got married in 1299

Even if he's wrong, which I don't know, I had to include this second Theodora in my post about Orhan's consorts just for completeness. Also, Alderson cannot be completely discarded just because he's sometimes wrong. He also wrote in the 50s.

I'm honestly perplexed because I feel like you confused me with another person, as I have never said anything that you claim I have said.

EDIT: I haven't forgotten about the other asks in my inbox, I'm just reading everything carefully. Please be patient 🙏🏻